Is it just me...

[palallin]

Well, I hate to run contrary, but my son is 7, and his Christmas list was filled with NYC trains. I do *NOT* run NYC, so he isn't following ME. He got an NYC starter set early on, but that wasn't much influence, either. He just finished the full consist of the Warbonnet (ATSF FAs-on dummy w/ horn--and 5 027 streamlined passenger cars) last Christmas. Santa Fe and NYC appeal to him (now he wants a Hudson, again something I've never had much interest in). who knows, Pennsy may be next!

BTW, I just closed a deal on a MIB 1994 NYC SSS set (RS-3 w/ mixed train) for his Christmas.

[Anonymous]

I think all the train manufacturers are doing a pretty good job of being all things to all people. There seems to be no end to the variety offered, be it your fantasy PE set, low production obscure roadnames or flashy modern billboard equipment. I don't see them producing scads of PRR, NYC and SF stuff because it doesn't sell. I do see them branching out into exclusivity enough to satisfy most tastes ( the recent move to good quality 19th century engines for example). The smaller guys are also doing their part by offering almost one offs of road specific equipment. The big picture today is exactly that...a big picture, where at no time in the past has there been such diversity in product offerings.

Bruce Webster

[FJ and G]

Another grip could be that all NYC & PRR fanatics demand scale fidelity (except for the most inexpensive starter sets). Very different for SF, with a plethora of unprototypical stuff ranging from full-sized trainmasters to black warbonnets and red-striped passenger cars.

The NYC & PRR fans seem to have not only the most to choose from but the most accurate as well.

Also, some roads like CNJ (basically a shortline) are overrepresented in toy trains, while other lines like the L&N, Southern, MP, Cotton Belt, which all were larger RRs are underrepresented.

And they haven't even come out with a single FJ&G locomotive.

Also, try finding a D&H steam engine.

Or howabout a 2 or 3 deck open 87' auto carrier; very popular in 60s and 70s.

[brianel027]

Good question Dennis. To get the answer to that question, spend an entire weekend at a train show where the focus is on KIDS and not on collectors and you will find the answer.

Kids do not notice the tiny prototypical details the way us adults do, unless they already have a dad who is a bonafide train nut. An Alco FA done in Conrail is still blue and still has the very familar "wheels on rails" logo. The traditional box car included in most train sets is a model type that is long history BUT it is STILL a box car and does closely resemble the ones still running that an 8-year old will know what it is.

Now take a look at the early Lionel MPC era catalogs and you'll see Pennsy steam sets that had PC cars in them. Or Chessie sets that had B&O/C&O cars in them. Even MARX trains when they were on their last leg, had the insight to offer steam starter sets in Penn Central.

Heck, the vast majority of real trains today do not run cabooses. Yet even the most die hard modelers who have scale size trains with the latest features and details, still run cabooses at the ends of their trains even though this is for the most part, completely UNprototypical. Hey, the hobby is about fun.

Kids recognize colors and paint schemes first. Once they get interested in trains, then they start learning about the different model types and styles of locos and freight cars. And on a prototypical note, Chessie System ran steam in full Chessie Colors. Even Conrail had steam tenders (used not for steam locos though) done in grey. And on a fantasy note, I can think of no better contender for a steam starter set roadname than Nofolk Southern. With a long long history of steam and coal, it's a perfect connection... and the same color too: black.

I have a Lionel starter set steamer done with the familar Norfolk Southern logo on the tender and kids love it. They say "look, that's like the train that runs by our house." Of course it isn't, but they recognize the color and the very distinctive logo.

Many of todays railroads have very graphic logos: CP Rail, CSX, NS, Conrail, BNSF and others like Soo, CN, Penn Central, Burlington Northern, Chessie etc. The logos alone grab attention. Kids might not know engine types, but they will and do remember these distinctive logos. Either that, or the hundreds upon hundreds of kids I've talked to over the years are all wrong.

[Anonymous]

So what do the manufacturers do about steam and and freight car types that are not appropriate for modern roads? Should they create accurate reproductions or resort to fantasy schemes. Starter sets are by design an economical introduction to the hobby. Naturally, they would use existing tooling for these sets.

[brianel027]

Beefmalone, it's not just your observation and I have been saying the same thing for years now.

I was very very active at one time, promoting the hobby. I did a lot of shows with a small, but very complicated and detailed traveling layout that was built on a door. The vast majority of my trains have been repainted... probably about 70% of rolling stock and I know 95% of my engines are all totally redone. And it was absolutely undeniable that the younger kids were distinctly drawn and much more visably excited when I was running trains with Conrail, Norfolk Southern and CSX engines and cars. Even some of the adults would ask where did I get this Conrail loco or that Norfolk Southern one? I had offers more than once to purchase some of my unique and custom painted trains. I can tell you folks that my Alco FA done in the CSX bright orange Maintenance of Way scheme was a huge hit with folks!

Ironically, when I would run the postwar roads (which I also like) such as Reading or Lehigh Valley, it wasn't the kids, but the grown ups that got excited. There were many times when kids would ask me to NOT run the NYC or PRR loco and run the Conrail or Norfolk Southern one instead! That speaks eons to me that kids not only notice today's trains, but have more of a connection with what they really see. Just as we grown ups did a generation ago for the postwar fallen flag lines.

BUT what happens in this hobby (and I know this from also being a retailer) is what I call the "Grandfather Effect." It's where grandpa stumbles into a train shop and sees the selection of starter sets. He remembers the fun he had with trains when he was a kid. He sees all the SAME exact roadnames from 50 years ago and they start to tug on his memories. He looks at the set, and the PRR or NYC get HIS attention and he decides to buy his grandson a train set and hopes his grandson will share the same excitement over the NYC or the PRR that he did.

I think this has been one of the biggest mistakes the train companies have overall made during the past decade. It annoys me even more when I see these uncataloged employee only Conrail items that K-Line exclusively made for Conrail... what a huge mistake!!! Those items should have been made in mass and for the general public.

Granted, there aren't as many real railroad lines today as in the past. And kids may not see trains the way they once did. But where I have lived, kids DO see trains and kids see the trains of today. And don't think kids don't notice this. Norfolk Southern locos may be black and borings, but kids - even little girls - notice the horse logo on the nose and remember it.

There are so many possiblities for some very neat train sets. I've personally seen Conrail MOW cars painted in orange, grey, a pale blue-green, black, red, brown and yellow. So how about some colorful cars with a the blue CR engine and caboose? Even Conrail had cabooses done not only in blue, but also red, grey, PC green, and yellow.

K-Line recently made an employee only set for Conrail celebrating the history of the line with a double NS/CSX engine pair and cars made up for all the "fallen flags" that went into the line! Wow! There's a set that K-Line should have made ages ago for the general public. The same thing could be done for others lines. How hard could it be to change the paint mask of the otherwise beautiful K-Line Santa Fe Alco FA to put the letters "BNSF" on the same exact war bonnet scheme... why that's even prototypical!!!

The train companies almost all suffer from a real lack of ideas, promotion and creativity when it comes to starter train sets. The only company with any insight into this is MTH, who has made starter sets and Railking items in current roads. But from what I have personally seen and witnessed, although MTH DOES make a high quality train set, they tend to be a little more pricey for many folks. And people do the comparison and find they get more track and cars in a Lionel or K-Line set for less money.

But I applaud Mike Wolf for at least trying to do what the others have not even tried. Before Railking became "ScaleKing" there were cars, locos and sets done for BNSF, CSX, Conrail and others.

[Roger Bielen]

Remember, the largest concentration of hobbiest was initially in the north-east and these RR's were the familiar names. But demographics have changed and the industry hasn't/

[Buckeye Riveter]

Why couldn't a manufacturer sell the shells for an engine separately, especially diesels ? Buy the electronic guts and buy the shell. HO Diesel engines have an outstanding variety of paint schemes and many times we are left with NYC, Pennsylvania and Sante Fe.

Williams seems to be the best in giving us different road names.

[wrmcclellan]

All the manufacturers branch out once in a while. The NYC, PRR, and SF stuff sell better obviously. I agree it would be nice if other lines could become more prominent. A bunch of fallen flags are embroiled in the UP licensing issue (e.g. C&NW).

[overall]

Train SETS are NYC,PRR and ATSF alot of times. There are individual items,like engines and cars, from all over the country.

George

[beefmalone]

They may have been the big 3 50 years ago but not anymore. I think a good way to get more people interested would be to market trains with names the younger generation has heard of before. I'm 30 and being from around here I grew up seeing IC or ICG on everything so that's what I'd like to buy.

[ChiefEagles]

Allan. [#ditto]

[laz 57]

I guess its because they are the Big three?
laz57

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by prewardude

More Lionel Lines stuff would be nice, too. [:-^]

Actually, I feel the same about the "new" tender I bought, due to a sick-sounding whistle in my old one. WHY did they letter it NYC instead of Lionel Lines? Joe

[Anonymous]

Actually, I think a good many of the manufacturers are stuck in retro mode. I guess they feel that since lines like the NYC and Pennsy, in particular, were well-known to many of us old coots, they must still be the ones in demand today. Frankly, I think they're wrong about that. Whole new generations have grown up without having ever seen the Pennsy, the NYC, or a host of others.

The Santa Fe is still around (in form), of course, and that's always been a popular road, but I do think they could do better, as far as the younger market is concerned, by doing more starter sets in liveries such as Chessie/CSX, NS, Conrail, Amtrak, and a number of other more "contemporary" roads that folks may actually have been exposed to at some point in their lives.

[prewardude]

More Lionel Lines stuff would be nice, too. [:-^]

[beefmalone]

or does it seem like 75% or more of the sets out there are PRR, NYC, or SF? Those are all great lines, but doesn' t everyone get tired of the same thing all the time? I wi***hey made more IC stuff.