Beware of track layout software errors; the genius of Lionel sectional track, layouts

[alton6]

I haven't yet done it, but it seems to me that 14.25" and 40" sections could be cut into various shorter lengths. These pieces would still be sturdy, and offer yet more fine tuning capabilities.

Carl

[lionelsoni]

Walt, it doesn't matter how big the squares are on the paper, except that it determines how big the drawing will be. Each square represents 1 1/4 inch for O27 and 1 inch for O31. Quarter-inch squares should be fine. They will make a 1/5-scale drawing of an O27 layout and a 1/4-scale drawing of an O31 layout.

An easy way to cut tubular track is to cut straight down from the railhead with tinsnips, cutting all but the flanges and pinching the railhead closed. Then flex the track to break the flanges. Then spread the rail open with a screwdriver from underneath until you can put a track pin or punch or rod of the same size into it. Flatten the crease on the top of the railhead with the very tip of small long-nosed pliers. Then squeeze the web back together around the pin or whatever.

You can measure the diameter of a single curved piece of track by measuring the distance between the ends of the center rail, being careful to measure at the center of the center rail. Then the diameter is that distance divided by the sine of half the angle of the curve. That is,
for 8 pieces/circle, divide by .383 (or multiply by 2.613)
for 12 pieces/circle, divide by .259 (or multiply by 3.864)
for 16 pieces/circle, divide by .195 (or multiply by 5.126)
Then, for the Lionel-style diameter, add the length of one crosstie.

[jkerklo]

Good post, NP2390. Let me add a few things learned from experience.

Lionel tubular track has changed over the years.

I still can't explain why O-gauge switches, from 711 to modern, are TALLER than O-gauge track.

The thickness of the metal, and therefore the track pin hole, has changed. Old steel pins are a larger diameter than new ones.

K-Line tubular track (especially curves) is slightly smaller than Lionel. Took me a while to figure this out.

O-72 14.25 inch straights are still available. At least they were a couple of years ago.

Curves are available in many diameters: O-31, O-42, O-54, O-72, O-96. By mixing curves (with the same sections/circle) parallel curved tracks can be done and the end of a curve can be made to come out wherever you want. Never have understood why O-42 has 12 sections per circle and every other has 8 or 16 sections.

A curve diameter can be identified by the number of ties.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Anonymous]

That's one dusey of a post NP2390! But you seem to be talking more about omissions, rather than errors. The errors are there too - the K-line track in the library needs a refresh since the 042 switch was changed and the introduction of the supersnap 031 and 072 switches.

I agree some serious thought and engineering went into the original sectional track - Fastrack has a long way to go to equal its versatility.

Nice post!

[waltrapp]

Bob, generally graph paper is 1/4" squares, right? But I have at least 3 different kinds (meaning the size of the squares) in my drawer. Can I assume that you mean 1/4" graph paper?

thanks - walt

[overall]

Whenever I make my own filler sections, I use a sabre saw with a metal cutting blade. I then use a belt sander to dress the edges. Obviuosly, WEAR EYE PROTECTION WHILE DOING THIS.

George

[Dave Farquhar]

There's a formerly shareware program (now free, and released under a similar license as the operating system Linux, so programmers can modify it) called XTrkCad. Its support for O gauge sectional track is limited (there's some Gargraves and someone made a library for MTH Realtrax, I think) but it lets you enter track. I built a library for it by measuring the sectional track that I have, and that's what I use for track planning. It's usually a little bit off (reverse loops that work just fine with real track never line up on the screen) but it gives me an idea of what I would need to build something, which is very useful when I don't necessarily have all of the track on hand that I would need. It gets me in the ballpark as far as what I need, so then I buy whatever I lack, start building, and make adjustments as necessary.

The biggest problem I have with the program is that it assumes I'm using 2-rail track, so the track on the screen looks funny. It's missing a rail and has way too many ties. :) I can live with that.

There's nothing wrong with the more traditional approaches with graph paper or a box of track and a big table, but I'm comfortable with the computer.

Does anyone have an O27 or O31 half-curve and the ability to measure it? I don't have one, or otherwise I'd measure one myself. Now I'm interested in what I'd be able to do by incorporating some half curves in my layout.

Incidentally, the only time I ever remember cutting track was when I was out of official Lionel half-sections, so I grabbed my last half section, grabbed an unused full section, and cut it to that length because it was easier than measuring and cutting the track in half. I guess it's a good thing I was lazy! And it's cheaper to buy used full sections and make your own halves than it is to buy new half-sections. I admit it, I'm a tightwad. That doesn't factor in the value of my time, but I figure the exercise is good for me.

[lionelsoni]

I guess it's time to post this again. It's an approximate way of laying out standard tubular track pieces using only graph paper--no template. There are two versions, one for O27 and one for O31.

For O27, each square of the graph paper represents 1 1/4 inch. You sketch the center-line of the track for each straight track section 7 squares long if the track is parallel to the graph-paper lines, or across the diagonal of a 5x5 square box otherwise. You sketch each curved section inside a 3x7 rectangular box, with the curve tangent to the long side of the box at one corner and at a 45-degree angle at the opposite corner. A switch is just a curved piece touching a straight piece, of course.

For O31, each square represents 1 inch. The straight sections are 10 squares (inches) long or across the diagonal of a 7x7 square box. A curve is in a 4x10 box.

This method is not exact; but it is very close. The worst error is about 1 percent. For example, it makes some O27 straight pieces 8 3/4 inches long, whereas they are actually 8.839.

[waltrapp]

NP: thank you the very interesting and informative post!!!

Bob,

I'm with you. Here's my version of commercial software. Maybe I need to call it hardware!

A scale of my living room in 2' blocks


Different size washers representing exact curvatures for 27", 31", and 42" curves:


Various angles to make sure that I extend the straight sections coming off of a curve correctly:


various confirgurations of how I can arrange my 10' ramp pieces, curved trestle, and plateaue:


I can't imagine not being able to sit on the patio is the summer with a cold drink and drawing away with pencil, paper, and 'tools'. Sit in front of a PC, nah, that ain't for me. I work with them all day. Plus, I just like using paper and pencil.

- walt

[Anonymous]

Hello to all the great people here, and thanks for the friendly words, the good ideas and publication references. Best wishes to everyone!

[overall]

Some of Lionel's publications from the thirties and the forties have some really interesting ideas in them. K-Line reprinted a lot of this material in their book called "Operating Manual for Lionel Trains"( I think that's right, I'm relying on memory here) I also have a little booklet called "Track Plans for Pop". This one was aimed at fathers of boys who would take command of the trains on Christmas day. Another good book was "Layout Plans" by cartsen's publications. Another one and, I think, one of the best is "Track Plans for Sectional Track" by the late great Linn Westcott.

You obviously know your stuff. I learned things I didn't know from your post. I hope you will teach us somemore.

George

[FJ and G]

NP,

welcome to the forum. I think you made the record for the longest 1st post!

[Dr. John]

Very interesting post! I use RR Track software and designed an )-27 layout with it. The actual layout differed from the software design slightly and I did have to cut some track, but overall it gave a good indication of required trackage and how switches fit in.

It's true that there is no substitute with working with real track on real bench work.

It puzzles me that RR Track would not make changes to their libraries if there are indeed errors. They offer periodic upgrades and add new libraries all the time.

Oh, and welcome to the forum!

[Bob Keller]

I do it Old School: a box of track + benchwork = layout! [:o)]

No software needed except bluejeans.

[alton6]

Interesting comments, and certain to ring a bell with fans of freelanced and temporary layouts. K-Line's full O gauge tubular track is currently cataloged with longer pieces and additional radii. The 14" and 40" long sections, with the extra ties, are particularly sturdy. I wish K-Line could update the 0-27 track with more radii as well.

Welcome to the forum.

Carl

[Dave45681]

One heck of a first post! [;)]

Welcome, by the way. [:)]

The straignt pieces (like O-72 straights that match the switch length) can easily be done by cutting custom sections. You can then copy that piece as many times as you want to make your layout.

I think you can cut curves by specifyinjg the arc length, but I am not sure.

Not to defend them for leaving it wrong, but it can probably be worked with if you know of the error.

[Anonymous]

Hobbyists should be cautious about using some of the track layout software packages in connection with traditional Lionel tinplate sectional track.

Beware: These software packages can contain major mistakes. You might miss out on the true genius of classic Lionel track design, and the fun of building some very clever layouts.

Regrettably, the errors in layout software packages are giving people wrong information about traditional Lionel track products. Available software can lead to major errors about which layouts work, contradicting not only Lionel factory track plans, but also what you can discover and verify with your own hands. Most importantly, software often fails to point the user to what's really special about Lionel sectional track.

Although some of these software packages are well-known, they may have omissions and flat-out wrong information about Lionel track pieces. And the software providers can be very un-interested about fixing errors in their programs.

This is very sad, as the original classic Lionel O gauge tubular track - dating back to 1915 and still being produced by Lionel today - is a masterpiece of engineering. The classic Lionel O-31 track does some very unique things, not quite matched by any alternative track system.

(I speak of the classic O-31 track, but there is also greatness in Lionel's Standard Gauge track of 1906-1940 and the Lionel-Ives O-27 track still being made today. The parallel genius of these several systems is a largely unsung but great achievement of prewar Lionel.)

Today, people still use the heritage Lionel O gauge track for many good reasons: It has the look of historic tradition, dating back to 1915 and the early mists of Lionel time. The track works with Lionel's wonderful Magne-Traction. The track is super-sturdy, and a good value. But there's more than all that.

There is a special genius in the design of the track pieces and how they fit together, that is now somewhat of a lost art. It is an art worth learning, and great fun.

A part of the genius of Lionel O-31 tubular track, is in the "half-curve" and "half-straight" pieces, which are, to the mystery of many hobbyists, longer than half. Two half-curves will be bigger than the 45 degrees of a regular curve, and two half straights, at 5.5 inches each, add up to an inch longer than the 10 inch straight.

But this is not some goof-up, or careless tooling, like many people think. This is all intentional. When combined with the 45 degree crossing and 90 degree crossing tracks - two other great creations of old Lionel - these O-31 extra long half-curves and half-straights let you make a number of brilliant and clever loops, sidings and other junctions, without the need to cut pieces like you would expect. You will be surprised at what you can create, without cutting any custom "fitter" track pieces.

The clever tricks of working with Lionel's classic sectional track, are partially documented in Lionel's own publications since the 1930s, when they occasionally present some layout ideas. But, in modern times, people have focused on the trains, not on the classic track, and the old layout genius is forgotten. I wonder if even anyone at Lionel these days, realizes the full usage of the classic track pieces that Lionel still has for sale in its catalog.

A lot of people don't even know that the majestic and venerable O gauge 45 degree crossing, directly substitutes in place for a simple piece of regular O-31 curved track - this one fact alone leads to great possibilities! I don't think any Lionel tinplate track layout is complete, without that grand big 45 degree crossing somewhere in it. Try it and see for yourself.

There's good fun - rarely experienced nowadays - in getting a complete array of the different Lionel tinplate track sections, and trying to make a creative, complex layout that uses at least one of every kind of piece, and yet doesn't involve cutting any track.

This genius of the classic Lionel designs, with the two crossings and the more-than-half "half" sections, has been lost on other manufacturers of track for O gauge. It has been forgotten even by Lionel fans and hobbyists. And now, it's being hidden by layout software packages that don't accurately represent the Lionel track sections.

Software packages are also flawed by omitting pieces of Lionel tubular track that Lionel has made at times in the past. Although such track pieces are not in current production, these pieces remain available and useful as part of layouts, alongside all the other tinplate O gauge track Lionel has been making for ninety years.

Another forgotten bit of Lionel track facts, is that in the 1930s Lionel developed and sold a complete O-72 tubular track system - and I'm not talking about the separate T-Rail track associated with the 1937 Hudson. This was regular tinplate track, fully compatible for use and mating with regular O-31 track pieces, but with O-72 diameter configurations. Some of these pieces continue to be made and sold today - Lionel's O-72 left and right switches (turnouts), and the O-72 curved sections.

What's been forgotten, however, is that in its 1930's development of the O-72 tubular track, Lionel also sold O-72 straight sections that were 14.25 inches long, which matched the appearance and spacing of the ties on the O-72 curves that Lionel is still selling today. This forgotten fact is also the answer to the hobbyist's query about why Lionel's O-72 switch has such an odd 14.25 inch straight length - the switch matches the straight track that was only made in the prewar period.

Even more forgotten, Lionel also sold a tubular "O-72 90 degree crossing" (separate and distinct from the familiar O-31 crossing, and also not to be confused with the O-72 T-Rail crossing) which made a perfect figure-eight with the O-72 curves and straights (and switches, if desired).

These track pieces can still be found and used as part of Lionel tinplate track layouts. And some other items should be mentioned. There is Lionel's 36 inch long tubular straight track that modern Lionel made very briefly, before realizing that a 40 inch long straight was more logical to substitute in place of four standard 10 inch straight sections. This odd track was made only briefly, but it's fairly easy to find, and has some uses.

And then there was Lionel's clever O-31 switches from the 1990s, comprised of three pieces, including one straight fitter and one curved fitter. These are useful layout items and should be a part of any listing of a so-called Lionel tubular track "library" or database.

Various software packages may have some of these elements, but you sometimes can't tell directly from the web what pieces are missing, or wrongly described in the package they are trying to sell you. You may merely see some assurance that there is a "complete Lionel track library" included. Be careful - If they really understood Lionel track, they'd be saying a lot more about it.

To take a specific look at perhaps the most well-known toy train layout software package, RR-Track for Windows, which even has a separate web page devoted to their Lionel track database. Here's the link to their Lionel page:

http://www.rrtrack.com/html/lionel_o.html

The page cheerily assures us that the layout database "contains all of the Lionel-type tinplate track" However, this is less than fully factual.

You can see from the page itself, as it stands today, that not only are things missing, but there is a major error included too, though the errors were pointed out to the vendor long ago. Among the missing is, for example, the 14.25 inch long O-72 straight track that Lionel sold in the early 1930s and late 1940s, still a choice find by toy train collectors and operators.

But most serious of all, is the error in the listing for the Lionel so-called half-curve track, which the makers of this software declare to be 22.5 degrees, or exactly half of the standard 45 degree O-31 curve. This is wrong, wrong, wrong, and this error will prevent you from accomplishing some of the cleverest Lionel layouts, which make wonderful use of the more-than-half size of the "half-curve". (For example, the half-curve makes a distinctive loop with the 45 degree crossing.)

A couple of years back I tried out this software, and I tried to contact the vendor to get the errors corrected, writing them at length with documentation from the history of Lionel products.

Quite amazingly, they told me they just didn't believe me that the half-curves were more than half, and they were apparently not interested in going to a Lionel hobby shop to look at the genuine article. They then just ignored me and refused to reply. Other people have written them too, but got ignored as well. The folks who sell this product have, so far, declined to fix things. Maybe that's just part of the computer software culture.

Or maybe, those of us who wrote to them as individual hobbyists, just didn't have enough clout to get them to fix these inaccuracies in what is sold as Lionel layout software. Perhaps some of you reading this forum have more clout than us other poor souls.

Here are their e-mail addresses to contact them, in case some of you are inclined to try to get these software people to correct their product, and thus benefit the Lionel fans who might buy or use it:

[e-mail]
[e-mail]

I tried to look at other software packages but never did find a complete and accurate one for Lionel track. I gave up looking.

Well, it was more fun playing with the actual track pieces on the big oriental rug anyway.

But if someone does know of some Lionel track layout software that was made by someone who really knew about Lionel track and its history, with all the pieces represented there and properly described, well golly, that'd be something.