Does anyone have a humpyard on their layout,or know anyone who does?I'm needing ideas for one .

[mackb4]

In the planning of my permanant layout I'm wanting to put a small 4 or 5 track humpyard right on the middle of the layout,since it will be the deepest part of my layout.The room I'm putting the layout in is 30x13 and will go into a smaller room (as a branch for storage via a wall tunnel).I know enough from working for the R.R. and being around humpyards what they do,how they work,etc.,but I really don't have a plan for this at the scale I'm working with.So do any of you have a humpyard in your layout,or know someone who does.Any ideas,suggestions or photos would be appreciated [:)]. Oh I prefer using Lionel track and switches.To help control the cost .[:I]

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm plannning to have 2 on my layout. They have been done successfully before.

You might want to consider Ross switches and Gargraves track for the job. They will give you nice tight track spacing, and low angle frogs, for smoother operation. I'm not sure if you can pull it off in less than 15' for the hump and bowl tracks. The height of the hump may have to be determined by trial and error.

One nice thing about Lionel and the other 3 rail cars is, the couplers can take a little slamming. Retarders aren't as big of a deal.

[Anonymous]

Im new to modling and want to set up or should i say start a O guage lay out my space is 10w X 14L

[csxt30]

[#welcome] David ! It would be better to start a seperate post if you can, or, say a new post. That way you will get a lot better response. In starting a layout, you may want to build benchwork to start with, & should pick up a book on the subject, will be very helpfull. Sounds like you have plenty of room for a nice size layout. You want to think about the equipment & engine sizes you want to be able to run, so radiuses are figured out ahead of time. In other words, what is the largest engines you will be running to negotiate the radiuses ? Keep us posted & ask for help, but you really should start a new post. Hope this helps.

[Anonymous]

Thanks John, I,ll look for a new post.

[goodness]

I saw a very interesting HO layout idea at the Marlboro MA show last saturday. Not a hump yard but related. The engine would push full hoppers of coal up an incline to a rotary unloader. The hopper was turned upside down by the unloader and back again. The engine then pushed the empty past the "hump" and it rolled down the incline, over a turnout in the straight position, and up another incline on the other side. Gravity would eventually stop the car before it hit the end bumper. Then before the car rolled back over the turnout, it was thrown to the out position. The empty then rolled back onto a run around that collected the empties. Meanwhile, the engine pushed the next full hopper in the coal consist onto the rotary unloader to continue the process. When all the hoppers were empty and onto the run around, the engine went in the other end of the run around and collected the empty hoppers for the trip back to the coal mines. This was a VERY SWEET SET UP....... the guy really did an outstanding job engineering and building it. Very impressive. Thought you might find this interesting as it is a veriation on the "hump yards" that are used for classifying cars and building consists.

Best of luck with your project,
Paul Goodness

[FJ and G]

I've researched this topic before and understand that hump yards have been done (very few); but there currently are no good photos on the Internet reg. hump yards and neither are there the dimensions you need (slope, retarders, etc).

The topic is ripe for exploring.

[poppyl]

This topic was "explored" on another forum several months ago. As I remember the discussion, space was a major issue (like 10 to 15 feet for the hump footprint at a minimum) along with inconsistent car "rollability" -- the law of gravity as it were. When I get a chance, I'll dig the thread out and see what was said.

Poppyl

[FJ and G]

Poppyl,

The cars will definitely roll but you're right about inconsistency of the roll. That's where the retarders would come in to play. It could be done theoretically just like the big boys. But no one has expended any effort in this direction and what we're left with is a bunch of flat yard switching layouts that aren't nearly as cool as humping.

[csxt30]

My sugestion on retarding the car on the trip down hill, is somewhere I read where a guy used air nozzles to slow cars down with. May be quite an intracate job, though, but a lot of fun perfecting it. Simply bending brass tubing, connected to a rubber hose from an air compressor, located far away. actually, a series of nozzles & hoses. K& S makes very small brass tubing, & there are several tubing benders available at the airplane hobby shops. Thanks, John

[Big_Boy_4005]

Air is OK for the lightweight cars of HO, but I don't think it will have much effect on O. I am not planning any system for slowing cars down, except letting the slope run out naturally. Like I said before, it is going to have to be played with to make a final determination.

In truth, trying to change a car's speed may be a futile gesture, anyway. You only have a fraction of a second between the time the car is uncoupled at the crest, and when it would reach any kind of retarder system, to determine what action to take, if any. It is really much easier to just let them go, and do what they are going to do.

[poppyl]

The thread that I remember apparently was over six months ago as it has been archived. I'm still working to get it restored.

Regarding retarders, there were several suggestions. Many seemed somewhat impractical but one I remember offered some theoretical promise. Assuming die cast trucks, one could perhaps place a couple of Kadee uncoupling magnets under the track and switch them on as the car rolled over with the electromagnetic force applying some slowing to the momentum. I don't remember that anyone had actually put this into practice but several believed that it might work. Might be worth a look.

Big Boy: Keep us informed on your progress. I'm particularly interested in your dimensions and slope and how things work at the bottom end. Good luck.

Poppyl

[csxt30]

Ok, Knowing air will stop a car & slow it down, I got my little air compressor out & put a smaller nozzle on, turned it on , let a car roll down a 2% grade & Bingo, I found I can not only slow the car down, but I can also stop it !! So, this proves a series of nozzles set in the track & directed upwards toward the cars will slow or stop them. Hoppers woud be the easiest because of their angled pockets to direct the air toward. I tried a light car & I tried a heavy car. It works.

[poppyl]

John: good proof of principle. Now the real job begins -- how to engineer the concept into something that could work repetitively without a lot of noise and human intervention and in a size compatible with O gauge. I actually believe that it may be doable, particularly if we can substitute a storage tank for the compressor and get a fairly fast electomechanical switch to open and close the tank. Activating the switch would be just like any other train activated device -- somewhere around 12 volts ought to do the job. Tubing shouldn't be a problem if one can find a plenum to step down from the diameter of the tank valve to the hose. Actually, the biggest problem may be too much air pressure since you've got the pressure coming off the tank and the added pressure created by forcing it through the smaller diameter tubing. That's why this is a real engineering challenge.

Poppyl

[overall]

I remember an aricle in MR years ago written by the late great John Armstrong in which he used a moving rail driven by a motor to make the cars run down the hump. My memory is sketchy on this however.

George

[csxt30]

Poppyl : Yes, sounds like a nightmare, but I thought of a series of nozzles , & a storage tank outside that automaticaly refills, & some restricters or squeeezers on the hoses,much like the retracts work in an R/C plane. Mainly I wanted to see if air would stop or slow down an o-gauge car, & found it does, so I know now it could be doable ! Thanks, John

[tmcc man]

John, I wish I had the space to do a yard now[V][censored][banghead][|(][soapbox]

[mackb4]

Wow thanks guys for the imput.I can see I need to do much more research into this other than what I think I know.It sometimes is hard for me to scale down what I see everyday at work with the scale I;m trying to apply it with.BigBoy do keep us informed to your progress,and John that's a real novel idea of the air. I could see putting a series of nozzels between the rails,with sometype of soft touch neumatic button on a spring supported rail.Sorta like the real thing,but without the squeazers.That could be another avenue of exploration.Trying to squeaze the wheels from a triggered section of rail.

[Big_Boy_4005]

We have an advantage in O that HO can't compete with, and that is size. If we really wanted to we could use a much simpler method which would actually be more prototypical. Using small gauge spring steel, we could squeeze the back side of the flanges. Totally silent, and very simple.

The grade coming off the hump is going to have to be steeper than 2%. My helix is 2% and I have to push most cars down the hill. Granted that is a constant curve, the straight away is a little better. 30 feet at 2% and the cars do accelerate, but the yard isn't going to be that long.

On mine, I know that I want the cars to slam slightly, so they couple. At the crest of the hill a permenant magnet will open all of the couplers, both ends of each car. This gives them the best chance of of coupling on the fly.

Poppyl, I have to lay the mainline that runs behind the yard, and the tracks that lead to the hump including the receiving yard, and some industrial tracks. If I get my butt in gear, and get into track laying mode I could knock it out in in a week or so. Just talking about it is getting me excited. Let's see what happens in the next couple weeks.

In the photo, the yard will be on the right, and the lead tracks on the left, with the receiving yard on the curve behind the camera. To get a sense of scale, the 1x4's are spaced 2' apart. I'm thinking 6 tracks, about 10 to 12 feet each.

[daan]

In real life the storage tracks are slightly going up on the end to slow the cars down. Air nozzles are a bright idea though..
But they require the cars to have a cetrain speed and therefore they need to go past the switches first. For hwat I know about it in h0, those switches take a huge amount of speed out of the car. I made the switches also on a less steeper hill to keep the cars rolling. Of course you could make the slope before the switches steeper, but then the car's have too much speed and could derail on the frogs.
It is a difficult thing to get it working the right way..

[FJ and G]

I'd like to echo Elliot's comment about trial and error.

Get some track on the floor; raise it; add some switches and rolls a variety of cars thru until you get the correct height and distance.

One thing I'll add is that real hump yards are sort of bowl shaped in that the end of the hump yard is sloped slightly back up so the cars don't roll out of the yard.

Instead of the retarders, perhaps you could very slightly angle the end of the yard up so the cars don't keep going; esp. when one slams in to couple. But not sloped too much that they roll too far back.

I would recommend using very good couplers or possibly even switching to kadee.

The hump yard could be done; but stressing again the trial and error aspect.

I would love to see your progress; as so many have brought up this topic but so far no one has ever posted photos and most have probably given up.

Just persevere and have fun is what I say; and go for it!

[Big_Boy_4005]

What might be the eaiest way to slow a car is a regular Lionel uncoupler magnet. It might be able to grab a car and stop it dead. I certainly want to keep this as simple as possible.

[poppyl]

Big Boy: I'm envious of your space!!

Agree that a mockup is the way to go to determine slope, switch roll through, and yard rollout. Scale cars with diecast trucks seem almost like a mandatory. Two or three car units may also help in some situations such as reaching the ends of the yard tracks.

John: You might want to think about using air brush (model size) nozzles and tubing on your air retarding system.

I don't have room for a hump on my current layout but if time permits after the holidays, I'll do a small mockup with a couple of Kadee magnets to see if they put out enough magnetic force to slow down a car rolling down a slope. Just curious.

Poppyl

[Big_Boy_4005]

Actually Dave, switching to Kadee couplers may increase the need for "crash control". Our oversized, heavy duty, Lionel style knuckles are designed to take a beating as they were made with kids in mind. The worst thing that could really happen if cars hit too hard is you might break a knuckle. That is generally a low cost repair, perhaps even cheaper than a new Kadee. If you really wanted to simplify the change out proceedure, instead of putting in a new rivet, just use a piece of wire with the ends bent to hold the knuckle in place.

Real railroads break knuckles all the time. Spares, as well as common brake parts, are carried as standard equipment on all locos. Tool boxes are often located under the cab windows just above the truck, but it depends on the model.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks Poppyl, actually the house was designed and built with the idea of a large trainroom specificly in mind. It was also a strong motivating factor in the decision that my ex wife would not get the house in our divorce. I had to give her half the value of the house ($250,000), essentially buying her a different house, in order to keep it.

Keeping the dream alive, has put me in a tight financial situation, but eventually that will ease. In the meantime I can work on construction, at a slow pace, with a very limited budget.

Hopefully this information will temper your envy slightly. It ain't all fun and games, wish it was though.[swg]

[poppyl]

Geez, Big Boy, that sure is an expensive train room but at least it is yours and not someone else's!!

Good to see that it hasn't limited your innovative thinking and ambitious plans even if it takes some time to get there.

Poppyl

[poppyl]

I mentioned Kadee magnets for a couple of reasons. First, you could place several within a given length of track which, if they work, would allow you to vary the degree of "slowdown" by the number of magnets you activate. Second, using the Lionel magnet you would achieve your degree of "slowdown" by how long you applied voltage to the magnet. I've found quite by accident that if the voltage is applied for too long a period, you can fry the mechanism. I'm thinking that the Kadee approach would be less prone to this sort of accident but as I said earlier, I have no real world experience with it yet. Just speculation on my part at this point.

Poppyl

Poppyl

[beefmalone]

ok I'll bite...what's a humpyard?

[Big_Boy_4005]

Beef, a hump yard is a classification yard that uses gravity to move the cars onto the various tracks. When a train arrives, the cars are sorted by destination, by pushing them up a hill called a hump, and allowing them to roll down, while switching them onto the appropriate tracks, thus creating new trains.

In the first photo, the engines are pushing the cars over the hump.



In the second photo, note the white tank car in the distance (left center). It is actually passing through a retarder, which is used to control the crash speed when it hits the line of standing cars already on the track.