Scale-Gauge

[Anonymous]

I have a steam engine from the Lionel Hobo set and I just purchased an early Williams F7. The steam engine looks like an HO next to the F7. As I am no longer near a decent hobby shop I will probably be buying items on line. My question is what do I buy to go with these engines? O gauge,O-27 or O scale. I have the PRR 16000 series passenger cars and they look ok with the steam engine but not with the F7.

[rlplionel]

Buy whatever you think would look good with your locomotives. Smaller, O27, rollingstock would look better with your steam engine. More scale-like cars would look good behind your F7.

Robert
http://home.surewest.net/rlplionel/Robert.htm

[Anonymous]

Robert,
As I do not have a hobby shop near by to see the products and I will probably be buying online. I would imagine I would ask the sellers for the demensions of the cars to get the correct size for each engine? Is 'O' gauge and O27 the same thing?

[lionelsoni]

O gauge is the distance between the rails, which is any of several values depending on what kind of modeling you do and what country you live in. But for Lionel-style trains, it is 1 1/4 inches. O scale also has a variety of meanings. Again, for Lionel, it means 1/48 the size of the real thing.

Lionel used to refer to their premier line of trains as "O" and the generally cheaper ones descended from their purchase of Ives around 1930 as "O27". Some of their trains were made to scale. Many were undersized. O27 tended to be smaller than O. This same situation persists today, although there is a tendency for trains of all descriptions to be closer to scale. Undersized trains may not be undersized in all dimensions. It is common for them to have the correct height and width, but to be short in length.

Lionel sold and still sells traditional tubular track of two types, both too large for the scale. The heavier track is nowadays often called O31, the lighter O27. There are also O34, O42, O54, and O72, which are ambiguous terms that refer to the curve diameter but do not say which type of rail is used.

It's a jungle out there.

[Chris F]

Here's what Lionel has to say:
http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/Catalog.cfm?CatalogID=6&PageID=646

"Gauge" refers to the distance between running rails. Both O and O27 track has a gauge of 1.25". The differences between the two track types are that O track rail is thicker and the ties are taller. Nothing here has to do with differences in scale.

"Scale" refers to the size relationship between the model and the full-sized ("prototype") item being modeled. Even track has a scale. Most prototype track has a gauge of 56.5". The ratio of O gauge to prototype track gauge is 1.25:56.5, or 1:45.2, which is O-scale over in Europe. IIRC, the 1:48 scale we use here had to do with early confusion regarding measuring gauge from the inside or the center of the running rails.

Lionel Corporation added to the confusion when it started to refer to smaller-sized locos and rolling stock as O-27. The description was meant to indicate they were able to navigate the 27" diameter track. To do that, the length of the locos and rolling stock typically was short relative to width and height. This "selective compression" means that "O-27" items are not in any overall scale since the length/heigth/width ratios all may be different. Therefore, "O-27" is not a good description for either gauge or scale.

Modern Lionel is using different terminology, Traditional (formerly O-27) and Standard O (aka O-scale). Although the text suggests you can run the two sizes together, your consists generally will look better if you run Traditional locos with Traditional rolling stock, Standard O locos with Standard O rolling stock. BTW, "Based on classic Lionel designs" refers to most (not all) Postwar items, and "Approximate scale proportions" refers to the selective compression mentioned earlier.

What about other manufacturers? My Williams Contemporary Line catalog recommends a set of 60' aluminum Luxury Liners to go with the F7's, just like the Golden Memory Series catalog shows similar cars for the F3's. Comparing dimensional data between Williams and Lionel products may help, too, especially when you see pictures of complete sets.