O36 fastrack switch derailments

[Anonymous]

Hope you all might help... New to mrr-ing and frustrated.

Layout: Lionel Santa Fe fast freight starter set with 2-8-4 locomotive, additional fastrack pieces (remote turnouts and straights to fill a 4x8), CW-80 transformer, no accessories yet.

Problem: Locomotive frequently derails on multiple turnouts.

When train travels forward through turnout (in this direction ">--", or in other words from the curved to the straight part of the piece), the front inside loco wheel "climbs" the slight bulge where the curve, points, and straight track all meet. Sometimes the wheel drops back into position. Most times it derails. This happens more often at medium speeds, less often at high speeds.

I originally thought this a turnout issue, but no obvious defects and problem occurs on more than one piece in my layout. So I considered the locomotive. Could this be a "starter set" equipment issue?

Any help before Christmas is appreciated, as this layout will be a surprise for my 2 boys this year. Thanks in advance for any help.

Trying to stay on-track in Palmerton, PA

[trigtrax]

I'm not that familiar with Fastrack switching but I think I read somewhere the non-derailing feature is the locomotive pushing through the switch rather than the electrical switch operating as with older Lionel. If this is true then your problem may be related to "starter set" engines. The weight and spring tension on the pilot may be marginal at lower speed in relation to the effort needed to pu***hrough the switch. Try running with the switches set in proper position and see if this still happens. The fix might be to add a beefier spring to the pilot or some weight to the front of your engine.

[Anonymous]

Trigtrax,

Thanks for the swift reply!

I neglected to mention in my last that the derailment occurs when switch is in proper position, i.e. locomotive is not pushing switch points into position during transit. In fact, if you inspect the switch closely, the bulge I refer to is only exposed when the switch is in proper position.

Thanks for the idea regarding the locomotive. I think it's worth a try!

Grateful for this and other ideas!

[Jumijo]

Well this isn't good to hear about. I just bought one this weekend to use with my starter sets. I hope I don't have the same issues!

Jim

[Anonymous]

I agree the problem is probably with the engine, although I can send a caboose through my manual FasTrack switch and have it re-set the switch with no problem. So engine weight alone may not be the cause. As mentioned, above, the pilot may be the problem. Good luck. I know the frustration you are feeling. Joe

[Anonymous]

The manual switches use the front wheels to throw the switch, the remote switches have an electrical non derailment feature and it works quite well.
I had a similar problem with a 2-8-0, and think it’s a combination of things that add up to a derailment; As trigtrax mentioned try to add weight to the front trucks or a heavier spring, also check to see if the points are thrown tight against the offending rail, I had to just slightly bend the point over on a few. The points may be too low causing the front truck to climb up the point. Place a clear plastic shim under the points. Cut it the width of the space between the rails and slide it under the point to raise it a little bit.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rdt527

the bulge I refer to is only exposed when the switch is in proper position.

After looking at my switch, both open and closed, I don't know what "bulge" you are reffering to. I assume you only have one switch? If so, take it to a train store and compare it to another one.

[Anonymous]

Doe the wheels on the front trucks have traction tires? If so, the non-derailing function will not have time to act/throw the points to re-align the switch. The new switches have the cut for the insulating rail pretty far into the turnout. Older switches had the isolation pin at the end of the tracks. Check to see if the manual has anything about extending the non derail function to the next section of track.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chuckn

Doe the wheels on the front trucks have traction tires? If so, the non-derailing function will not have time to act/throw the points to re-align the switch. The new switches have the cut for the insulating rail pretty far into the turnout. Older switches had the isolation pin at the end of the tracks. Check to see if the manual has anything about extending the non derail function to the next section of track.

Somehow I don't think this information applies to this problem. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Guys...if its not the switch, could his pilot wheels be spaced too far/near apart? Joe

[trigtrax]

If the same engine derails through multiple switches I'd look for the defect in the engine not the switch.. I've never heard of a case where the pilot wheel gauge was off, but there's always a first time for everything. Generally the pilot truck has a tab that rides in a slot under the engine. I'd also check that to make sure it's not binding in some positions.
It would be helpful if you could borrow an engine from someone to test your switches.

[Jumijo]

Until this thread came along, I had never heard anything but good things about FasTrack switches. People rave about them. I bought a RH manual one this weekend solely because of all the good things I've read about them.

Jim

[SchemerBob]

The locomotive must be the problem. I have the Lionel Polar Express 2-8-4, MTH Amtrak Genesis, Lionel Santa Fe FT, and Lionel Chessie GP38 and they all pass through my FasTrack switches without problems. Even more, I can push just plain freight cars through the switch and the non-derailing feature still works. Try doing that with your switches. If that works, the engine must be the problem.

[Anonymous]

Folks,

Just to further clarify some details, all my switches on the layout are remote O36s. My issue (pilot wheel climbing the bulge) occurs at the inside edge of the inside rail on the turnout portion of the switch as the train travels from curved to straight part of switch.

For those of you with these pieces, look at the part where the inside curved rail and the inside straight rail intersect (this is where the points would touch). There is a slight manufactured bulge on the inside of the inside rail to smooth the transition from point to rail. This is what my wheel climbs, and this problem does not involve--best I can tell--any points.

PS: I never expected such a response so soon! Thanks to all who have, and will, put thought into this on my behalf. I hope to return the favor.

[Anonymous]

I know what bulge you are referring to. I think it is there to slightly deflect the leading wheels away from the points, and to keep the wheels from hitting the points if they are not thrown tight against the rail. My Lionel starter set 4-4-2 never had a problem, but occasionally my MTH 2-8-0 would derail until I added weight to the front truck, shimmed the points, and on one bent the point in so it would set against the rail and behind the bulge.

[Anonymous]

Do you mean the ramps into and out of the "frog"? Those are there to help keep older deeper flanged wheelsets from digging in. A modern wheel set (aka anything after MPC era) shouldn't have to rely on this feature.

[Anonymous]

I think I would be looking at a locomotive problem, and not a switch problem. I have several FasTrack switches on my layout (all manual) and have had no problems whatsoever with derailments. Most of the motive power I operate on this layout is small--things like Plymouths, Porters, BEEPs, occasional 2-6-0s (MTH), and other such stuff. Could be that your pilot wheels on that 2-8-4 are out of gauge a bit. It doesn't take much to cause problems if it's off one way or the other, and it should be easy enough to fix.

[lionelsoni]

I don't have any experience with these switches. But I have been reading this topic and still don't understand the problem. For those who might know something about the switches, could you clarify? Is it happening at the frog, or where the points touch the stock rail, or somewhere else? Is the locomotive moving in a facing-point or trailing-point direction? Do the wheels derail to the outside of the curve or to the inside?

I very much doubt that pilot-truck wheels have traction tires. These would be found only on driven wheels.

[Anonymous]

Pilot trucks definitely do not have traction tires, as Bob noted, so that would not be an issue in this situation.

[dougdagrump]

Before trying to make any adjustments to the turnout I would try adding a little download tension to the pilot wheels by adding a shim(washer) under the spring. Use the thinest washers you can find and experiment a little. Washers are cheaper than possibly damaging your turnout and having to replace it.

[Jumijo]

From what I gather, the problem is occurring when the loco is coming through the switch from the curve. In other words, if the switch is a RH, the loco is moving R to L, down through the curve and on through the straight where the points are. There is indeed a little bumpout on the inner rail where the point meets the inner rail. It acts as a guide or ramp for the wheels, so that they don't derail or stop on a misaligned point that isn't sitting exactly flush with the rail. I went home last night and looked at mine. There is a bump there. The fact that no other rolling stock has a derailing problem suggests it's not the switch that's the problem.

Jim

[lionelsoni]

I still do not understand to which side of the track the truck is derailing. But, if the truck is climbing the rail to the inside of the curve, I suspect an oversteering problem that is common to Lionel locomotives with 2-wheel pilot trucks. It is a design error that places the truck pivot too far forward on the locomotive frame.

To see whether this is occurring, just look at the truck's wheels when it is at the problem position on the track, to see whether they are parallel to the rails and the axle perpendicular to the rails.

[Anonymous]

Hello All!

Since so many of you are devoting time and thought to this topic, I feel I should offer more clarification...

My pilot wheels do not have tires, derails happen on inside of curve when traveling toward the points from the curve to the straight, and after reading all posts and more careful observing I'm beginning to agree--locomotive steering may indeed be the issue.

QUOTE: Originally posted by dougdagrump

Before trying to make any adjustments to the turnout I would try adding a little download tension to the pilot wheels by adding a shim(washer) under the spring. Use the thinest washers you can find and experiment a little. Washers are cheaper than possibly damaging your turnout and having to replace it.

I tried this, but it does not seem to correct the problem. I will go again Friday to my local train store and swap out the locomotive/tender set (Railsounds are not working either, though wiring is correct) and see if the problem re-occurs. I'll update here to tell you if that did the trick.

I am grateful for your knowledge and experience. So are my boys!

Rich Taylor

[Kooljock1]

Rich,

I've had the very same problem on one or two of my engines. Both times it was corrected by greasing the front truck pivot points. Once I had the tension spring on the front truck of my LionMaster T-1 installled up-side down, and that created the same problem.

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

I have tried the grease and it did not correct the problem, unfortunately. I will try reversing the spring.

Thanks for the tip!

[lionelsoni]

You can check the steering either by putting the locomotive on the curve and observing whether the pilot truck is aligned with the track, or by making a couple of measurements. Measure the length of the wheelbase, that is, the distance between the axles of the drivers that have flanges; call this w. Measure the distance from the center of the wheelbase to the axle of the pilot truck; call this d. Finally, measure the distance from the center of the wheelbase to the pilot-truck pivot. This last distance should be equal to d/2 + (w*w/d)/8. If it is more, the pilot truck will oversteer. The track radius doesn't affect whether the truck oversteers; but, if it does oversteer, it is more likely to derail with a short radius.

[Anonymous]

Well folks,

The final chapter in my switch derailment saga...

Went to the hobby shop and on the way I had an idea. From everything observed, it seems that additional weight on the pilot wheels of the 2-8-4 should correct the "bulge climb." So I could either try to add more weight to it, or...

Buy another starter set with a diesel (read: 2-motor and heavier) locomotive and use it on the 4 x 8 layout. So I did. Works great, no problem derailing. And the beauty of the plan is that the 2-8-4 steam locomotive is now dedicated to a switchless loop built with the starter set FasTrack under the christmas tree!

I know this is not the most hands-on solution, but it works well in this case. Besides, who can complain about adding another train to the collection? This looks like the beginning of a beautiful hobby!

Thanks to all who took the time to help me here. I greatly appreciate it!

Happy Holidays,

Rich

[lionelsoni]

Rich, I'm glad you found a solution. But did you or could you try measuring your Berkshire to see whether my guess at the cause of the problem is anywhere close to the mark? I don't have one myself, or I would do it.

[EIS2]

rtd527,

Look at the pilot wheel opposite the one that is climbing over the rail. See if the wheel is dropping between the tracks and forcing the other wheel to climb the track. If that is occurring, then the wheels are too close together. Use a small punch on one end of the pilot axle to spread the wheels a small amount. That will cure your problem, if in fact one wheel is dropping between the rails.

Regards...
EIS