Yet Another Track Question: Outside Use ?

[Anonymous]

Can you tell me who makes 3 rail "O" track that is both UV resistant and Brass or Stainless Steel. I recently for health reasons had to move in with my Mother-in-law. Not a problem she's a great Mother-in-law. Her basement is Jam Packed, but she has a Large Back Yard with a Pond. I know "G" is meant for outside, but I already have "O" rolling stock and Money is an issue. On another board I was told that Europeans have run "O" outside for years. Thanks in Advance for any Replies. Dave

[eZAK]

Atlas!
Nickel silver rail & plastic ties.

[FJ and G]

Dave,

It's lonely outside in 3-rail O. I would love to correspond with you either online, offline or both.

I'm in the same boat as you (not the motherinlaw part but the outside and already have toy train part).

First, to answer your question. Pat pretty much sums it up. However, if you're interested in handlaying your own track like I am, I can tell you how I'm going about doing it by cutting my own ties and using code 148 Right O Way rails (microscale also has rails in those dimensions). The Atlas track has a proven track record (pun intended) but is actually about twice as pricey as G-scale track. Price would not be a concern if your layout is small or if price is no object, however.

But even if I had the money, I enjoy laying my own track.

Currently, I'm building a nearly 12 ft long 3-track warehouse that doubles as a storage shed for rolling stock and an actual warehouse structure.

I'm still awaiting my shipment of rails and once that comes in I'll be doing some fancy gandy dancing and posting photos, which I suspect only 1 or 2 people might be interested in since the vast majority of folks stay indoors with their trains.

I encountered some hostility on the Garden RR forum when I mentioned O outdoors. One fellow (who happens to be a very good modeler in G scale) threatened to leave the forum if I stay on. But there are also good folks there who will answer questions but likely won't have much experience in O.

The forum and LargeScale forum are good places to go to research plants, outside structures and such. But for O toy train specific, I haven't yet found anyone to correspond with who either has a layout or is building one (lots of people have "inquiring" minds but no one seems to take the leap).

Anyway, let me know if you're interested (and serious about this) and we can compare notes.

[Anonymous]

I'm interested and serious. I'm almost at the point that just to prove the pundits wrong, I'm going to do it. A local Hobby Shop is selling off all of their Atlas stock. Track is at 40% off. I need to see what he has left. I also think I read that Gargraves can be used outside. I already have a pretty extensive "N" scale layout in the works, and "O" scale Rolling stock. I don't want to start in a complete new Scale, "G", if I don't have too.

I also noticed a get out of our sandbox attitude on the Garden and Large Scale boards. Coming from "N" "O" is Large Scale to me.

I'll keep you posted. My Wife and I like to Vacation in the Shenandoah Valley, What part of VA are you from ?

Thanks, Dave

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

Dave,

. . .
I encountered some hostility on the Garden RR forum when I mentioned O outdoors. One fellow (who happens to be a very good modeler in G scale) threatened to leave the forum if I stay on. . . .

Really?! What a jerk? What offended him so much that he wanted to leave?

My mother-in-law's basement is jammed packed too.

Jim

[FJ and G]

Jim,

Yeah, and the bad part is that no one on the forum called him on it. I think he's got some intimidated. He also told me I have too many posts and should do more model railroad work. I put up photos of 3 of my recent layouts to prove him wrong but I don't think you can convince someone otherwise who has it out for you. CTT is a much friendlier place than some forums; but I won't get into that.

About 1/2 way down you can see what happened and that's just one of the posts:

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=1&TOPIC_ID=48820

Dave,

OK, man. Glad to hear you're serious about it. If I would have known about the 40% off, I'd likely have gotten the Atlas just to get the trains up and running more quickly as the handlaying part is slow work.

I'm from Northern Virginia, near Manassas. My folks live in upstate NY so I can stop and visit you if you are up in the Scranton area or Wilkes barre. If you decide to come to this area, there's a lot to see and do in addition to the trains.

There are several topics we can discuss if you'd like to keep this post open for a while.

There's the issue of floating vs. solid roadbeds.

There's the issue of the weather and how it may affect your trains.

There are scale vs nonscale plants issues (they're all out of scale actually so it's all relative).

There are outdoor structure issues.

I don't know where to begin so I'll just bite off a little bit and begin with roadbed and track and we can take it from there.

The Gargraves should work fine outside (kind w/plastic UV protected ties b/c the wood is basswood and not really made for outside unless you seal it with stains periodically, just like your deck). The only issue I would have w/GG is the possibility of stepping on it and crushing the tubes. If you can get Atlas track that cheap, I'd go w/that if I were you.

Anyway, there are some who actually use cement and rebar for subroadbed and screw the track into a cedar or redwood longitudinal strip of wood embedded in the cement. You can use pressure treated wood but those w/lots of experience swear by the more expensive cedar or redwood and they stain it (don't use the poly coating stuff). Thompson's water seal or any good deck stain should do the trick.

The other way to do it is with floating roadbed like the real railroads do. That's what I'm going to do. Dig a 6 inch deep trench and make it about 6 inches wide per track. Some will line the bottom with that vegetation matt that stops stuff from growing thru it but allows drainage. Others just fill the bottom of the trench with rocks the size of coal and then at the top they put more scale chicken starter grit or turkey grit or crusher fines. I'm using crusher fines from the quarry. Don't rinse it, tho b/c the dust in it helps to make the fines settle and "cement" together so your track stays in place better. You can wash down the track with a garden hose to help it settle.

As to forming curves, your track has a memory and will want to straighten out. You can cut 2 narrow cedar strips and glue or nail them to the underside of your ties. They are called battens and they will not be seen b/c the ballast will be covering them.

As for turnouts, it is recommended to mount them on something like plexiglass or cedar wood and to be careful w/the ballast so that the points don't foul.

Well, there's much more to it than that but that's where we can start.

Another school of thought, btw, is to raise the entire layout above ground. However, IMO you lose the realistic garden feel by doing that but there are some benefits to doing it that way.

[FJ and G]

OK, here's the first time I'm showing my trackplan, mostly located under the deck in backyard. About 30 feet long and 12 ft wide with wide radius curves.

Dotted lines represent future track which will be much bigger but I want to concentrate on getting this part completely done first, then put in the pond and waterfalls and do rest later.

The final plan, as you can see is basically a loop within a loop. There's a minimum of turnouts and turnouts that are there are all grouped in one area for easy access. All are manual.

You'll notice in the crossover how it is carefully designed to avoid the dreaded "S" curve.

Ground slopes so the track at the lower part of the diagram will require fills and/or bridgework.

I hope to possibly complete the train shed this weekend and as soon as the rails arrive in the mail, I'll be laying track.

Feel free to comment on the plan. It's more of mainline layout than a switching layout, as I'm emphasizing the plants more than I am a spaghetti bowl full of track and crowded structures.

I'll likely put in more structures after everything is up and running, but the structures will only be scratchbuilt and I'll be taking my time building those.

The shed is a must, hwoever, as it has a functional purpose of keeping the rolling stock dry. I don't trust putting the locomotives out, however and will carry them out each operating session.

[Anonymous]

I think I'm going to do this. I just got off the phone with a dealer who's selling off his Atlas stock. I can get Atlas 40" 3 rail Nickle Silver for 40% off or $7.80 a piece. He has one case left which gives me 40' for under $100.00 Plus he has 027 and 045 plus some 10" straights and misc switches Crossings etc. I already have extra Power Supplies, and Lionel and K-line Rolling stock, so all I would need initially is the track, and roadbed. The next cheapest option is to by a Bachmann Big hauler set for $100-165 + then I need all new Track because the Bachmann won't hold up outside.
If I could put $200 into track I'd have a nice starter layout.

The only other Option I can think of is On30. But I doubt I'll find HO Track that will hold up outside. The wheels are turning. Dave

[eZAK]

That a good deal on track davsachz!

And you have a lot of great ideas from Dave!

I think I'll copy this thread for future use.

[Anonymous]

I have used some atlas nickel silver rail outside in texas. The results were not good. The outside rails started to oxidize. They turned green like the statue of liberty. I know people will say that the rails shouldn't oxidize but they do. Keep in mind where I live the humidity is most of the year 70 to 95 percent. I had to clean the rails constantly and some of the rails became pitted and discolored. I could not keep my outdoor rail line. I wish I still had some oxidized pieces left so I could take a picture and show you guys. I know south east texas is extreme in Humidity so atlas nickel silver rail might work for you if you live in a low humidity area.

[FJ and G]

Hi Macaste,

No one can dispute your experiences, which were very real for you. You mention that the rails oxidize. Most metals do in fact oxidize. I would be curious how much conductivity they maintained given different levels of oxidation. At 2 extremes are brass, which oxidizes and does not conduct well, and aluminum, which oxidizes, but does conduct well with regards to the oxidation.

As a matter of fact, brass, N/S and aluminum all are used for outside rails and have been time tested. If you experience N/S oxidation in O gauge, then I'm sure G-scale folks also experience it as well, but still somehow manage to run their trains outside. In fact, n/s is one of the more preferred choices for rails amongst gardeners.

I believe that Atlas is n/s and GG is stainless steel. It might be interesting to compare those for outdoor use; but both will work; proven to work as a matter of fact.

Here's an interesting site to peruse:

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips2/track_cleaning_tips.html

One of the things that I'm going to do is to connect ALL rails with resin soldered jumper wires to minimize loss at the rail joints. A trackplan thus designed should provide excellent continuity throughout.

BTW, the site I supplied would indicate that GG track would offer a bit better conductivity as n/s oxidation is not entirely conductive (but nontheless affords a degree of conductivity). Incidentally, I think that n/s is a misnomer b/c little if any silver is found in whatever alloy they use.

To once in a while clean my track would for me at least not be an impediment to enjoying a layout outside, where I can watch trains in a natural element and play throw ball with the beagle.

That your rails became pitted would be a bigger concern. I will ask some of the garden railroaders about this.

[lionelsoni]

Nickel silver is not supposed to contain silver, but rather to look like silver. It is also called German silver; so it has something in common with Welsh rabbit, although its ingredients are different--copper and nickel. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_silver

[cnw1995]

This is v. interesting. I've run mostly the battery powered K-Line sets outside on their plastic track - and set up ovals outside using 027 but not permanently. I leave it out all day but take it up at night. David, I'm sorry to hear of your reception on the garden rail forum.

[FJ and G]

macaste,

A garden RR told me to ask you what cleaning solution you used for your rail. This might provide a clue (possibly an adverse chemical reaction).

Oxidation by nature is a way for metals to protect themselves from further deterioriation and I'm especially curious about the pitting.

Thx Doug,

Bob,

BB the beagle will be intereested in these Welch rabbit rails. :-)