My personal problem with Lionel........................

[Anonymous]

More of a comment then a question but here we go. I grew up hooked on Lionel. My dad passed his traditions down to me and I ran with it. I always thought of it as the ultimate X-mas gift to give or receive. Part of that admiration (just like my love for things like Craftsman Tools and whatnot) was the fact that it was made in the U.S. and had been for nearly 90 years (or so). Now, I know their production history and that they tried Mexico for a few years there and ended up back in Michigan but that didn't bother me too much because I figured they learned their lesson and came back to reality. Collage came, a few moves took place, than I got married, bought a house and after a few years away from the hobby I was back into it again. I don't know how you guys felt, but it really bothered me to learn that they had shifted production of such an American tradition as Lionel Trains to China. Against my better judgement, I bought a few things for my young son and ended up at my work bench fixing them, brand new out of the box on X-mas morning. I understand, like many other manufactured goods, that toy trains are a whore industry and that, supposedly, to stay alive in a tight marketplace, that they "had" to shift overseas to stay viable, but for me, most of the passion I had for Lionel as an American Icon is dead. The faulty trains on X-mas morning finished it off for me. Now they seem like any other cheaply made, Wal-Mart type product. It kills me to see those beautiful orange & blue boxes with the "Made in China" printing on the back because it brings up everything that goes with it, like an almost 100 year history down the drain. Honestly, I don't think I've purchased a new (modern) Lionel product since I bought these last few items for Jr. 3 years ago. Lately, I've been looking at MPC era stuff at trains shows like it was the "Good old Days" from when I was a kid. Is that twisted? What's everyone else think? Just wondering if I'm way off base or if anyone else feels let down by the company I always admired.

-Brian in Bflo.

[Anonymous]

Just about everybody is manufacturing their stuff in China today, so there's little point in singling out Lionel. It's the only way these firms can stay competitive, and it isn't going to change--unless or until they need to move to some other offshore nation when China manufacturing becomes too expensive.

Folks can lament the changes all they want, but they are irreversible. Once one accepts that hard reality, one has to make a choice about whether they can live with and accept the change, or not. If not, they'll simply have to be content with vintage products that were made in the U.S.--prewar, postwar, and the earlier period of the modern era (all pretty good choices still, in my opinion).

I doubt that anyone except the accountants was happy to see production of such a time-honored tradition move to China, but train enthusiasts today want--even demand--all the bells-and-whistles in their toys, and they want to pay rock bottom prices for them. That being the case, the consumers have only themselves to blame for the situation as it exists today.

I've always admired Lionel trains myself. They are, after all, what got me started in the hobby many years ago. But I'm content to live with my memories of the "real" Lionel as it existed then, and when they make something that appeals to me, I'm just as willing to accept today's Lionel. I figure there's no point in worrying about something that I cannot change.

[Blueberryhill RR]

Well, Brian, you can be sure that you are not the only person
who feels that way. That's probably the reason, that a lot of
people, myself included, like to stick with the Postwar items,
that have Lionel NY on the tracks, for example.
Chuck

[laz 57]

BRIAN and EVERYONE ELSE,
The only way this hobby is going to come back to the good ol USA is if there is someone who will stand up and say enough is enough we will build toy trains in the US and pay our people what they are worth. In turn the trains will have better quality control and more input from the worker and opperator of toy trains what is right and what needs to be fixed. What this will come down to is the almighty dollar. The way it is now the dollar is winning over seas.
Just my 2 cents.
laz57

[Craignor]

Brian,

I don't like the China connection, but I accept it as modern reality in trains, as well as TV's, computers, and next will be automobiles. I understand economics and understand why they are doing it: cheap labor.

What really bugs me though is the poor quality. I have tracked my new loco's out of the box defect rate since I started buying in 1997, its about 40%. That includes MTH, Lionel, K-lIne, RMT, and Williams.

Its all of them, and It pisses me off every time it happens.

If the quality were better I would be a much bigger buyer.

[laz 57]

CRAIG,
Just one more reason to bring the industry back to the good ole USA.
laz57

[thor CNJ]

China is looking sturdy now, but that can change quickly. If the cost of fuel stays high, it affects the overall cost of having goods imported from so far away. Another problem that people overlook is climate and terrain. China is prone to everythign from earthquakes to floods. One bad seismic event can cripple their industry. Last but not least is the quixotic nature of Chinese politics. A sudden change of regime, brought on by a coup or outright revolt, is not unknown in Chinese history. The Commies are just the latest dynasty. China may seem cohesive, but it is a compilation of many smaller ethnic groups and cultures. Maybe the baloon did not go up in Tienamen Square, but there's always something lurking in the wings.

If I were manufacturing, and were doing business in China, I'd make sure I had a fallback posoition in case the baloon went up.

[brianel027]

Brian, you make points that have been made in the recent past.

Back around 2000, Lionel CEO Maddox stated Lionel needed to move production overseas because Lionel could not compete. Many misunderstood that to mean "retail price." But Lionel's retail prices have not dropped substantially save for a few select items. I think what Maddox meant is that Lionel was not able to afford all the new product development that they wanted to do in order to keep up with the other companies that were already overseas.

In all fairness to Lionel (and K-Line too), some aspects of quality actually increased with the move overseas. Look at K-Line items before and after the move to China and you see the obvious improvements in especially paint and graphics. Prior to the move to China, Lionel was not painting any starter set related products and now they are.

On the other had, all this industrial exodus is slowly having an effect here in the US as once good paying manufacturing jobs are gone leaving many to accept jobs that pay less. The service/retail sector of the US economy is as large now as it has ever been... and these are the kinds of jobs that offer little in prosperity. Notice even with the cheaper made Chinese goods that many retailers still have to offer big sales and price reductions in order to move products out the door. This is also very true with the 3-rail train business.

Over the summer, I took the opportunity to speak with as many Chinese tourists as I could since there are quite a few who come to my area. The overwhelming consensus was that Taiwan rightfully belongs to China and a military force to take it back may not only be necessary, but would also be the right thing to do. Granted, not all Chinese may feel this way, but it was obvious to me that many do and are not at all bothered by military force against Taiwan in order to do what they believe is right. The Chinese government has been stepping up product and purchase of military weapons over the protests of US government officials. This could all be super interesting since the US has a defense treaty with Taiwan. When the missiles start flying at Taiwan, we'll have a good chance to see what the US Government values: consumer dollars or American honor? "Hello, Mr. President, you have an urgent phone call from the CEO of Wal-Mart!"

Aside from that, I also recall many folks criticizing Lionel MPC era products as compared to the postwar era products. I personally think MPC Lionel gets a bum rap since MPC did keep Lionel alive and even put money into the product line as far as development and tooling goes. But it's also hard to deny that they did do some serious cheapening of some products: plastic gears, wheel sets and snap rivets to name three.

The other thought to consider is that today's higher tech trains are more complicated than ever. There's more that can go wrong with them even before they start the long jostled shipping journey to the mainland US from the Pacific far east. I have to say; I own a lot of Chinese-made pre-scale/pre-high tech K-Line trains. I have a load of S-2 switchers that are now easily over 12 years old and are still running just fine. Very few problems ever, and nothing that I can't fix. And in 15 years, I've so far had to replace only 1 DC can motor. My Lionel 4-4-2 Columbia steamers are now all over 12 years old too and again, still running like champs, as they did out of the box too. Even my MPC-era locos are now about 30 years old and still run fine. Even with the typical MPC problem of gear wobble, I figured a super simple way to cure that problem completely.

There is something to be said for basic simplicity... and I wonder if many of the higher tech trains would still not have problems even if they were made in the US?

[Kooljock1]

One of the problems LIONEL, LLC faced was the nature of their UAW contract with their manufacturing employees. When General Mills moved LIONEL from New Jersey to Chesterfield/Mount Clemens in 1970, they got a great deal on a former Ford Motor Company paint plant on 23 Mile Road. But the deal came with strings: namely they use UAW labor.

And that ain't cheap!

Jump ahead thirty years. The train landscape has changed in monumental ways. MTH is building their locos in Korea, and their roolling stock and accessories in China. K-Line is building their whole line in China. Along with incredibly cheap labor, one of the greatest draws is that LIONEL could no longer find qualified die-casting tool makers here in the United States. Even MPC era car tools were being made in Canada.

The result? Re-runs. Lots and lots of them! While MTH was busy tooling up "one of every kind of locomotive ever run in the United States", LIONEL was making GP-7/9's, Hudsons, Berks, and F-3's...all on Post War tooling. In the case of the Torpedo, B-6, and Hudson, on Pre War tooling.

This competitive state couldn't last forever. LIONEL was getting their clock cleaned.

So, part of the move was labor cost, but part was also the fact that the supporting industries LIONEL needed nearby to survive had moved over-seas as well.

So what do we have now? Most of LIONEL's steamers are made in South Korea. Most diesels, accessories, and rolling stock in China. The engines run better. The detail is better. The lower end products are MUCH better than they were ten years ago(compare the 1993 NYC Flyer to the 2005 NYC Flyer!). The couplers couple. The cars are painted. The brakewheels are metal. Most every car has die-cast trucks and better couplers.

And there are some American jobs too. The high-end steamer motors are from Pennsylvania I believe(Pittman). Many of the electronics are from here. The engineering(as we have learned so much about as of late) is done here, including the development of TMCC II.

Will there ever be large scale manufacture of LIONEL trains here in the States again? My Magic 8 Ball says "fuzzy". I have to think the economic changes that would have to occur to make that a probability would probably be changes that you'd find really uncomfortable.

The Torpedo, B-6, and Hudson and many others were tooled in facist Italy, so Communist China is not that huge a leap for the toy train world. After China, next stops for cheap labor will be the Middle East and Africa.

Don't laugh. Do you think Roy Cohn could have pictured LIONEL being made in Communist China?

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

The days of U.S. manufacturing of these products are over. Learn to live with it, and get on with life. All the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change the reality of the situation. The market is far too small to make U.S. manufacturing viable--certainly not at prices that consumers would be willing to pay. All here know that is true, so why can't they just accept it?

And if the trains aren't being made in China or Korea, they'll be made in Malaysia, Indonesia, India, Vietnam, or elsewhere. But you'll most assuredly not see them being made in the U.S. again.

As for any quality problems: Blame the U.S. importers for that, not the Chinese or others. I'm sure that Chinese workers are every bit as dedicated to doing their jobs well as any American worker is--probably more dedicated in many or most cases. The work ethic in those nations is as high or higher than anything you'll find here, for a good number of reasons. It's ultimately up to the U.S. importers to provide a proper level of oversight to assure satisfactory quality control measures are followed in the products they offer. And it's also up to these same importers to assure that they maintain adequate inventories of spare parts--here--to keep these increasingly more sophisticated toys operating properly over a good period of time (something that it seems none of them are really willing to do).

[Roger Bielen]

As stated it is not just Lionel or the train industry. Working in retail I would be hard pressed to find anything marked "MADE IN U.S.A.". What especially irks me is seeing product made in Vietnam.

[MartyE]

I don't care whether my trains are made in China, the USA or the North Pole as long as they work. The few years before Lionel moved to China are some of the WORST for quality and price. Paying the American worker for what they're worth? To what make toy trains? Those guys were raking in a ton making toy trains that sucked. My last few years of purchase have been more trouble free than when Lionel was still here in the states the years proir to the move. I just don't buy that the quality went down due to the move to China. Why shopuld the American worker give a rats but how well they are doing when they know they can't get fired. Nope I 'm happy with my imports. Would I prefer they were made here? Absolutely but not by some over payed worker.

You want to find blame on QC issues it comes down to design and the companies themselves. Their commitment to their to the product.

[FJ and G]

All trains pretty much are coming from the PRC, like it or not.

Regarding Lionel, they've got the most recognizable name brand. As matter of fact, even tho I don't have too much Lionel stuff, when people ask, I say I run Lionel and they understand that MUCH more than toy trains or MTh, heaven forbid.

The reason I don't run too much lionel stuff is b/c they tend to be a bit higher priced compared to say K-Line or MTH; however, they do have bargain stuff once in a while or must have like the 0-6-0

[garyseven]

The quality control is done here in the good ole USA, by our people who are paid what they are worth... [:o)]

[andregg1]

I thin

[Craignor]

Marty and Allan,

I agree, China isnt responsible for the lack of QC.

You don't get TV's or VCRs, or DVD players from China that are new, with a 40% defect rate. The difference must be in the supervision and involvement of the importers.

If one of the importers stepped up their quality control dramaticly, and limited the defects to 1%, they would rule the market!!!!

There must be many others like me that are sick and tired of having to futz with defective new items.

I love this hobby, and the defects are the biggest bugaboo. Think of how many newbies throw in the towell after buying one of the bloopers.

[Anonymous]

Look at it this way, when they moved, they claimed the factory only made a 17% profit that year and that it was not enough.... Of course this came immediately after Wellspring ***. to control of the company. They are simply a "holding company" and as such they have one thing in mind MONEY! They don't give a F&%! what happens to lionel in the long term, they want to make lots of money for their stockholders. While everyone wants to make money and of course should, its the at all costs affects to the product that **** people off. At that time they came accross as if they were going to stop making the "old" style engines and cars, things such as wound field ac motors and such. Luckily either people complained or someone came to their senses and they do still make those trains. Heck someone got smart enough to continue the celebration series. Now, how well the "old" stuff in the line sells compared to the new stuff, I don't know, but they are both still in the catalogs so "we" must want it all.

As a society we have excepted overseas mfg so you need only figure out where the next mfg country will be after China gets expensive in 5 or 10 years. It will happen. Could it be Russia or somewhere in eastern Europe? maybe.......... Sure won't be here!

Instead of worring about where your trains are made, you might feel concerned that your country is more dependant on the rest of the world than it ever has been, and if that doesn't bother you, maybe you should get ready for world currency and speaking French! The last comments were made purely to go off topic in support of a seperate post ;)

RUN SOME TRAINS

[Bob Keller]

Actually, Lionel was sold to Wellspring in September 1995 (See the Dec 95 CTT).

Lionel announced movement of production to China in late 2000 (see May 2001 CTT), so the decision wasn't made suddenly, just the announcement.

[wchrisyoung]

The quality control and the high number of defect have been an annoyance with all the train manufactures. Several years ago, I was getting 1 out 3 trains as defective. They were fixed under warranty at no cost to me, but I had to deal with the 2 -3 week wait to get the item fixed. If I buy a trian at a hobby shop, I have it pulled out of the box and tested. If there is a defect, It is know up front and I do not have to go back to drop if off. Within the past year, the number of defective engines have decreased. Maybe I am getting lucky.

Several months ago on another forum, MTH posted a long reply to a topic about QA testing. They talked about their QA procedures and stated every engine is tested prior to shipping. I do not know if this has helped them. Only time will tell. Does anyone know if Lionel, K-Line, Atlas and others have similiar procedures?

Chris Young

[eZAK]

railroadedagain,
I see your point and agree with you!
Of course, times being what they are, we have very little choice

[Anonymous]

Interesting debate about the quality control - there was a company over here named Mainline Railways that had HO locos and cars made in China (by the same plant that now does the Bachmann range). Their approach to quality control was simple: Stock was sent over in large polystyrene trays. On arrival at the UK HQ it would be thoroughly checked and tested, then boxed and sent out to retailers. Defective items were either returned or sold at low prices through the factory shop (to people who would put up with doing a little remedial work in exchange for the fairly spectacular price cut). Doesn't sound like a bad system to me, I think DOA Mainline locos were fairly rare.

[Warburton]

My experience has been good with China-produced Lionel product. Actually better than pre-China stuff. I agree with most all of you that this Asian production is not going to change anytime soon as production of ANYTHING will go wherever production costs are cheapest given quality requirements. Of course, where American workers are going to get the $$ to BUY this overseas stuff in the future is going to be the real problem as fewer and fewer decent paying jobs are available to our people!

[daan]

Europe is also alike america with manufacturing. The pure putting together things which are labour intensive is simply too expensive here. That's not in the first place because the workers want huge wages, but mostly because the government takes a lot of money away from the workers with huge taxes, insurance costs etc. Also housing and energy costs a lot more here then in any other part of the world.
Also having a job is something "normal" to a lot of people living here, so if they get fired, they simply switch to another job, there are plenty of them as long as you are educated.
Designing and calculating the stuff is done in the "high educated countries" and the labourintensive putting it together is done somewhere else where labour is cheap and people work longer hours.
That's something which is going on for years and years on a row here and the only factories staying here are the ones where everything can be made mechanically.

A factory like Lionel wouldn't excist anymore if it didn't move it's production to a cheaper country. Simply because if a GP9 from Lionel would set you back for 400 dollars, and next to it on the shelf is the same sort of locomotive with a lot more features from brand X for $200, every one can guess that the Lionel GP wouldn't sell.
It's a pity when a tradition is given up, but by doing that the name and the brand survived (for now)..They simply didn't have another choice if they wanted to stay competitive.

[winrose46]

QUOTE: [i]Several months ago on another forum, MTH posted a long reply to a topic about QA testing. They talked about their QA procedures and stated every engine is tested prior to shipping. I do not know if this has helped them. Only time will tell. Does anyone know if Lionel, K-Line, Atlas and others have similiar procedures?

Chris Young

I have bought about 13 mth engines in the past 2 years and everyone has worked straight out of the box. I have had subsequent problems with one (SF E-6) smoke unit and that is it.

[FJ and G]

I don't think Quality Control is limited to Lionel or other toy trains. Quality of MANY gizmos can be frustrating; from modern computers to computer-driven cars; the more hi-tech, the more can seem to go wrong.

In my mind, at least, I EXPECT just as many Q problems w/toy trains as with any other toy or appliance.

WHAT I DO expect is that when a part breaks down, that it will get repaired free of charge. I have had both Lionel and MTH stuff fail and rather than complain and get all bent out of shape, I have simply returned the itmes.

AND, every item that failed was repaired and returned (although it sometimes took a spell).

So, you won't hear any grips from me. Toys ain't perfect and neither are the people who make 'em; tho we'd all like them to be. [:D]

[siberianmo]

[2c] On the subject ....

It bothers me to no end to have ANY of my memories destroyed through the advance of time that brings along with it - change. No one or nothing stays the same. Really. It would be nice IF only .... but it just ain't possible. LIONEL is a name that conurs up so many great thoughts in my aging head, but it is a name in reality. Long gone are the people who manufactured those wonderul trains I had as a kid in the 40's and 50's. Long gone are the people who insisted on quality and demanded excellence from the work force.

As I see it, the quality issue is one that we Americans should be able to insist upon and the company should demand. It's really that simple to me. Don't buy the stuff they are marketing - period - unless and until the quality improves. It doesn't matter where it is manufactured, other than to those of us with that thing called "National Pride" (and believe me, I'd much prefer the "Made in U.S.A." stamp any time!). The trains could be manufactured in Zimbobbatutu, but if the quality isn't there, then the people pullling the strings here in the U.S. at the corporate level should simply rescind the contract - not import the stuff and find someone who will adhere to the STANDARDS. Wonder if that latter term has any meaning to the "string pullers" at LIONEL and other companies who are heavily into overseas labor [?]

Sorry, if my [soapbox] sounds repetitive, but to my way of thinking, shoes made in Malaysia are something out of my control - purchasing them if they don't measure up in QUALITY is something I can control through my spending habits. Same goes for model and toy trains.

It really seems that simple.

G'day!

[Kooljock1]

Ogage(sic),

When Wellspring took over their original intent was exactly the opposite of what you state. Over and over through a period of at least the first three years they repeated their mantra of US production, open frame AC motors and MagneTraction. This all while they continued their pursuit of the Odyssey Motor.

While they were so busy doing this, MTH and K-Line were eating LIONEL's lunch with CAN motors, new tooling, lower prices and off-shore production.

Jon [8D]

[Warburton]

Kooljock -- You are darn right about the early Wellspring years. They were putting American flags on the pages of the catalog for a while and really pushing the "Made in America" line. As MTH's sales grew and their's dropped, they finally had to eat their words and move it all overseas. It was a matter of survival by then! You know, I really would have liked it if they had continued to make the old fashioned products (Postwar-type stuff) here in the US, though. It would have given the customer a choice...

[espeefoamer]

How many of you would PAY the extra $$$ a loco made in the USA would cost.
I,too am frustrated when all I see on the boxes my HO trains come in is Made in China,but the prices are already too high. They would be astronomical on a product made in the USA.I hate to say this,but unfortunately this is how things are[:(!][:(].

[Anonymous]

Whenever I purchase a large doller item like a locomotive, I test run it first, before money changes hands, if it fails, then I dont buy it, plain and simple! I had to go thru 4 D&H RS11's before we found one that would operate correcly on both conventional throttle and TMCC. I prefer USA built stuff, but it was bound to happen sooner or later that the Lionel line would get moved offshore. But between all my buddies, our USA stuff has been more dependable than the overseas stuff. My pair of NYC 2380 GP9's have tons of miles on them with only some oiling once and a great while. My D&H RS11 died and was returned for a refund (spent on the second 2380 GP9) I dont think the offshore is the total reason, its more the fact that modern toy trains are as compicated as a home computer. With my Lionel repair training, if I remember correctly the TMCC/RS setup in a 2380 GP9 is equilivant to a 386 home pc. That was only RS2 and early TMCC, now we are on what RS4-5? Dont get me wrong, I love the newer scale looking trains, but nothing makes me smile more then the sight and smell of ozone from my 1949 1655 steamer that was my dad's as a kid. All that matters is buy what makes you happy, be it prewar, postwar, MPC, LTI or the newest thing from whoever......Just have fun! Cheers Mike