Surge protectors

[eZAK]

Mark,
I know what your saying.
and it maybe a marketing ploy but they are indeed tested & used by various corp.

I have been in the trade for over 20yrs. myself.
I have personaly installed numerous units, that are commonly called
'Lightning Arrestors'.

Tele-com switching stations & computer data storage facilities commonly have banks of these. Also switch gear rooms & elec. utility vaults typicaly have various sorts of lightning protection.

"Ever stand next to a surge suppressor that's 5' tall?"
Actually, YES I have! (not to mention giant breakers & auto transfer switches)
I have even installed them!
I worked in several power plants (coal, nuke, nat.gas)
The latest was a peaker site. There I worked on the turbines and in the monkey yard.

[Anonymous]

Vendors have been using the term "lightning arrestor" for years. It's probably a better marketing tool than "surges".

According to IEEE (the guys that write the national standards on the subject), there are only "surge suppressors."

The ratings on suppressors are based strictly on the type and size of the components inside. Nothing magical there. Most devices use metal oxide varistors (MOV's) because they're fairly robust and cheap. They DON'T however do a very good job protecting sensitive electronics because their turn-on times are too slow. Thye must be combined with a device commonly called a "transorb", which is a combination of two high-speed zener diodes stuck back-to-back to clip the fast wavefront before the MOV can come on-board and clamp the brunt of the wave. The top-end rating of an MOV is the failure point. They'll give their all to do their job, but then explode when done. Most "black box" lightning arrestors have greatly exaggerated claims. 1,000 joules of capacity is NOT the capacity to absorb a given wavefront, but is almost always the combined capacity of all devices in the box, whether or not they'll be caled upon to operate for a given surge. It's like rating a truck horsepower based upon both the engine output and the braking ability combined. Sounds silly, but that's how they do it for marketing.

I've been involved with the electrical utility business for 21 years, been involved with power quality specifications and issues, and specified suppressors for many situations. The ones I use are individual MOV's or combinations of MOV's to get the appropriate voltage rating. Ever stand next to a surge suppressor that's 5' tall? It takes three of them to protect the high-side connection for a substation transformer. I almost took a job designing surge suppressors for Square D, but decided not to go that way in my career. It would have been a very boring job.

Mark in Utah

[eZAK]

Mark said,
"In fact there's no such thing as a lightnig arrestor. You can suppress surges, but you cannot by definition arrest lightning."

I hope the people in the telecom & computer industries don't hear about this[swg]

If you clicked on the link provided you will see that there is indeed a product called a 'Lightning Arrestor' !(I did not make up the name)

You will also learn that they can clamp up to 50,000 amps, surpress 6,000 volts, & 2,000 joules per pole! All with unlimited hits!
Try that with your surge suppressor.

They (an arrestor & a suppressor) do this by taking the excess to ground.
Make no mistake your grounding is very important!

The commercial & industrial versions are even rated higher and have been used for years with great success.

It should be noted that while there may not be anything you can do if you suffer a direct hit, You will be glad you had one when lightning hits a transformer down the block.

All statements above can be backed up & varified by various web sites, the NEC, the I.B.E.W., & NECA!

[Anonymous]

Lightning arrestor = surge suppressor

In fact there's no such thing as a lightnig arrestor. You can suppress surges, but you cannot by definition arrest lightning.

A properly designed surge suppressor will not interfere with any equipment you'll plug into an outlet.

Don't expect your surge suppressor to protect your equipment from everything. If your PC plugs into both the AC and the phone, make sure that you have ONE suppressor that handles both AC AND phone. do NOT use two seperate suppressors. Also, don't expect the cheap-o carbon block installed at the entrance to your house to protect the phone line. By FCC standards they only have to restrict the phone line voltage to 1000 volts. The utility ALSO has surge arrestors, typically 10 kV arrestors on your transformer to protect the transformer. They CANNOT protect your home. Not practical, too expensive, and simply wouldn't do much good to even try. The arrestor has to be close to the equipment it's trying to protect.

The idea is not to ground everything, but to get everything to the same voltage potential.

Use good arrestors to protect your PC, television, and trains.

Mark in Utah P.E. (Electric utility engineer)

[eZAK]

If you are worried about lightning, as well you should be, and you don't want to unplug every electronic device when it rains, You need a Lightning Arrestor!

Found here; http://www.deltala.com/products.htm

They should be used in addition to a surge suppressor.

Also, As an added protection all engines with electronics should receive a .20 cent TVS(transient voltage suppressor)

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Charlie Bee


My Ham brother disconnects his antenna tower from his ham rig when not in use and unplugs them. He has had several fried.
I also had a stereo receiver damaged years ago in an apartment with underground wiring. Lightning will even hit under ground wires.
Charlie

You got that right, heck everything got fired by lightening once in my mobile home. CharlieBee, why do you hook an antenna to a ham? Ain't them for eatin?

[Anonymous]

A surge protector may help on a small, distant lightning strike. But if you get a hit on your house wiring most electrical equipment will probably be toast. Best protection is to unplug and try to keep plug away from outlets. After all the lightning probably came several miles from the clouds to ground.

My Ham brother disconnects his antenna tower from his ham rig when not in use and unplugs them. He has had several fried.

I also had a stereo receiver damaged years ago in an apartment with underground wiring. Lightning will even hit under ground wires.

Charlie

[lionelsoni]

It's not surprising to me that modern electronic trains might need protection. However, if your locomotives are of the sort that has nothing more complicated than an electromechanical E-unit and a whistle relay, they are robust enough to handle just about any abuse that your power lines can hand out.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChiefEagles

Strange. Buckeye and I use surge protectors and have no porblems with TMCC. I think you have to get a fairly good one. In fact, all of my train equipment [transformers, DCS, TMCC and etc] are behind surge protectors. All electronics in my house and all of my onboard battery chargers [boats, tractor and lawnmower] are behind surge protectors.

And do you know where I was taught to use a surge protector for my TMCC [?][?][?] Davis Trains and Electronics in Milford, Ohio has their test track set up that way. [:0] When I was starting with TMCC, I asked them for an explanation of how to wire it and run it. They spent about 30 minutes teaching me the parts and pieces. Before Davis did trains he fixed electronics like TVs, VCRs, Stereo, etc. So if it was good enough for Davis it is certainly good enough for me. I have never had any problems with my TMCC except when I don't have fresh batteries in the controller.

[ChiefEagles]

Strange. Buckeye and I use surge protectors and have no porblems with TMCC. I think you have to get a fairly good one. In fact, all of my train equipment [transformers, DCS, TMCC and etc] are behind surge protectors. All electronics in my house and all of my onboard battery chargers [boats, tractor and lawnmower] are behind surge protectors.

[Anonymous]

I tend to unplug any sensitive equipment if I know we are going to have a serious storm move through the area. While the computer is on a surge suppresor, you need to make sure any telecommunications equipement is also protected. There are shunts for cable modems as well as dialup/phone lines. A nearby strike on the cable or telecommunications lines can produce a surge that can backfla***hrough equipment that isn't turned on or even plugged in.

I try to disconnect completely because a surge protector is of no use on a direct hit or close miss. A lightning bolt that has just leapt several thousand feet will not be clamped by a zener diode (unless maybe its the size of your thigh and connected to a copper rod driven 12 feet into the ground)[;)]

Some surge supressors can affect the grounding lug on the wall wart transformer for a TMCC command base. Some don't. It will be rapidly and readily apparent if your outlet strip is one of the ones with "problems".

[Big_Boy_4005]

I've heard that surge protectors interfere with TMCC grounding. Trains shouldn't be that vulnerable to power surges, as they are connected to the house supply through a transformer. If you are really worried, just don't run them during a thunderstorm.

[jonadel]

We have nearly every important piece of electronics in our house on some sort of a surge protector and that is a good thing as early this morning we had severe lightning that was very close to our house. One of our satellite receivers was tripped and after I reset the protector everything was good to go.

I don't think one can be to careful to guard your train equipment, way to much money involved that can be easily protected with surge protectors.

Jon