My venture into S-gauge trains and some thoughts ......

[siberianmo]

At the onset, this is NOT a slam at S-gauge or S-scale trains. So, please let’s not ba***he writer on that score – the remainder is fair game! [swg]

From my days as a kid I’ve always thought that the S-gauge trains of A.C. Gilbert his American Flyer just looked better than my Lionel 0-27. Nevertheless, my loyalty persisted and the arguments continued with my childhood friends regarding which was best American Flyer or Lionel [?] Someone had said that 0-27 was really S-gauge with 0-gauge trucks and wheels. That didn’t sit well with the kids of Lionel! Of course, the battle lines remained firm and the debates are locked somewhere back in time inside that thing of mine called a memory. Ah, the 1940’s and 50’s were great times for toy trains.

Fast forward to present times.

I finally got around to seriously looking into S-gauge trains – not so much for hobby purposes, but simply to have a small operating layout to – well – play with. For those of you who know me through the Forums, you’ll recognize that I’m the guy with the Can-AM HO layout that occupies a good portion of my basement. Love it and love HO. It is and will remain my primary model railroading interest for however many years are left …….

My amazement peaked when I discovered that what I thought of as S-gauge toy trains has made a significant leap into even better looking, more realistic, and rather expensive stuff. I learned the difference between S-gauge and S-scale interests – hmmmmmm. Okay – I get it. I found that the American Flyer trains of old really are toys in comparison to what is marketed today, primarily by a couple of outfits (S Helper Service and American Models, for example). The track availability is also far more realistic as well and in fact, the whole of it really can compete with HO. But that’s where it kind of ends – for it doesn’t compete that well.

In my case, I decided to make the jump by constructing a modest 7x8 ft layout. This particular layout is suspended from the ceiling and can be raised up to the joists by means of a 4-point pulley system. Why [?] Because the only space available to me for this idea happens to be in the only room in our home not otherwise dedicated to something else. So, the basement store room is it. By the way it was a Forum's member who tipped me off regarding the hoist system. [tup]

In my search for the roadnames and types of loco’s and cars that I desired, it was quickly revealed that within the world of S limited availability abounds. Now, I’m not an ignorant sort of guy – I understand supply and demand. However, these limitations made it rather difficult for me to come up with a scheme in order to have my pike outfitted with railroads that fit the period I was looking to depict. Ultimately, I settled on Missouri Pacific and Illinois Central, actually my 3rd choice of pairings.

The track was purchased from S Helper Service and I love it – really do. They were absolutely outstanding in their help in putting into graphics a layout that I had in my mind for my 7x8 ft board. I seriously doubt that anyone in HO would have gone that extra mile. Kudo’s to SHS! So what’s the beef [?]

Accessories like vehicles - especially period vehicles - buses in particular - are extremely difficult to find. I have yet to find a bus that can be placed on my highway for let's say the 1950's - and sorrry, I'm not into eBay. I ordered some cars that were advertised as 1:64 and when they arrived - no way is that scale correct. Measured up against a known 1:64 the set was off. Figures - try to find animals in the wild or just workers 'round the railroad. Even SHS couldn't help very much - all they had were seated RR personnel. Structures - man - this was a quest. All I wanted were a few RR related items to have trackside. I purchased some great looking kits - but never did get exactly what I was looking for. And it goes on .... There's just no Walthers for S and that's that. PLEASE do not send me any URLS - I've browsed so many well intentioned offers only to come up with the exact same findings - not available or not made.

From start to finish – that is lining up my order list through the on line hobby shop and the manufacturers (I didn’t want to place an order unless and until assurance was given that the items were in fact available) the whole process took about 2 months. That’s two months to acquire the track – three locomotives (2 w/sound) – 8 freight cars – 2 cabooses and 4 streamliner passenger cars. And oh yes, and a great MRC dual AC transformer. I should mention that several months before lining up my order, it was some feedback from Forum's members who helped me with understanding what's out there for transformers. [tup]

That just seems to be a long time in order to make a purchase and have it delivered. With HO - pick up the phone - send an e-mail - or log on to the net - and wham it's in and delivered, by comparison. How in the world then can S ever expect to rise to the level of the competition [?] It's a great size for trains and they look fantastic. I've already spent hours just watching them go 'round and 'round and ..........

So, now that it’s all here and I’m beginning the landscaping phase of my S-gauge layout (I went with S-gauge rather than scale because one day – maybe – I’ll find one of those great looking AF toy trains from my childhood and they will run on my SHS track!) I’ve wondered, have others been a bit put off by the things I encountered in venturing into S-gauge [?]

Oh [yeah] my photo’s may be viewed at:

http://www.railimages.com/gallery/thomasweber

check out pages 5 & 6 for the S-gauge ………

See ya!

[Jumijo]

siberianmo,

Although S gauge gets a fair amount of coverage in CTT the magazine, I don't see much talk of it at all here on the forum. I wonder how many forumites collect or operate in that scale.

The Greenberg shows in my area have a large number of S dealers selling new and vintage products. There are scads of AF locos and rolling stock at them as well.

If not mistaken, it was either Scenic Express or Arttista's web site that I came across S figures. Plasticville O structures are somewhat undersized in my opinion, and would be more suited for S layouts.

I found O-ish sized animals at WalMart for under $2.00 a bag. They might not be "exact" scale, but animals come in all sizes.

Vehicles billed as 1/64 often are not, and that is based in large part on the packaging, which is generally uniform in size. Just as an example, while a Matchbox VW Beetle may be ~ 1/87, a Matchbox dumptruck is not because it has to be scaled down to fit in the same size card as all the rest, and if in fact you look at the bottom of some of those vehicles, the size is marked correctly on the bottom. Put the out-of-scale vehicles toward the back of the layout where they won't be so obvious.

Lastly, and in no way do I mean this as a knock or some other negative criticism, so please don't be offended. HO operators are well known for their almost maniacal devotion to detail and true-to-life operations. What I find so refreshing about the larger scales (for me it's O27) is that's not the case, generally speaking. S and to a larger extent, O are more about toy-like fun. Whimsy and creativity and extensive use of one's imagination are more the order of the day. Basically the attitude is "it's all good". Try easing your HO mentallity a bit and letting your inner child have a good time. Sweat the small stuff on your HO layout.

PS - I'm glad you have good things to say about the MRC transformer. I might be purchasing one.

Jim

[palallin]

Ertl carries an EXTENSIVE line of of 1/64 buildings, farm equipment, figures, and vehicles. Many periods are covered, though not all are comprehensive.

[siberianmo]

jaabat Jim

Appreciate the comments, thanx! [tup]

From last to first: The MRC is a beauty - and I mean that. Mine had a balky meter - but with a bit of this 'n that (tapping and using the adjustment screw) I was able to get it to register correctly without having to absorb the costs of shipping it back to the outfit I purchased it from. If you've checked out the photo's, you've seen what this thing is powering. I could power 10 times what I have and feel confident of sufficient resources. Check around for good pricing, though - PortLines Hobbies had a good deal for me.

This entire thing with S-gauge was entered into for one reason and one reason only - fun. So, there's no HO mentality to deal with as far as I'm concerned - zip, zero, zilch. Thought that point was made early on ....

Regarding scale, as in proportional sizes to match up with the rolling stock - well, in that regard, I want my vehicles and figures to look as if they belong. There's hardly a site or a venue that I haven't visited in order to find what I'm looking for - absolutely exhausted them - and me.

I have everything that I'm going to purchase for my 7x8 ft layout - ain't a bit of room left. It was built to be saturated - and that it is! [swg] The trains are the focal point, everything else supports them ........ Now it's a matter of completing the landscaping and then settling back to enjoy it all. [yeah]

I've been taken somewhat by surprise at train shows where S-gauge/scale is on display. Whenever I hear, "Well, it's close enough ....." somehow that just bothers me. Again, I don't see it as having anything to do with HO - for I felt that way as I kid with Lionel. Although, admittedly, in those days - close enough worked, but I always kept looking for the proper size. Just my anal way, I suppose.

Tom

[Sturgeon-Phish]

My S-gauge layout was made with two goals. Post war trains cars and accessories exclusivly, and operating them to have fun. My 5x9 layout is a classic plan to run two trains. When the grandkids visit going to run Papa's trains is always a treat. We run the coaler, the talking station, the baggage smasher stockyard and drum loader. They amaze me. 50 + years old and still running great! I've just started the landscaping and I know going in that not everyting is the right size in relationship to each other, but this is my escape, I do have fun with the trains. When it quits being fun I'll move on.
Jim

[Anonymous]

"Ah, the 1940’s and 50’s were great times for toy trains."
-------------------

Well, I can identify (and agree) with that--especially the 50s part! Back then, Flyer and Lionel were in heated, but from a boy's point of view, friendly competition. Unlike the situation in most areas of the country, all the kids in my neighborhood had Flyer layouts, and I was the only one with a Lionel pike--a big one, at that. Nevertheless, we enjoyed each others' trains, and had a good time ribbing each other over the relative merits and limitations of each brand. A few years later, at the close of the 50s, I was selling both Lionel and Flyer trains at a local department store, so had the full benefit of my earlier experiences with both brands.

Fast forward to today: When Flyer went belly-up, so did most of the significant interest in S gauge. Too bad that happened, but it did. I always felt S was just about the right size for model trains--not too big, and not too small. But the fact remains that it is, today, a small niche within a relatively small hobby, and that's not likely to change unless some major manufacturer in another scale--MTH or Atlas, for example--takes an interest in growing S scale/gauge. Lionel has had plenty of opportunity to do just that over a good many years, but they're still sitting on their hands and pretty much letting the opportunity slide by.

You had a hard time finding all the items you may want for S scale/gauge simply because the market isn't there in sufficient size. Fortunately, there are some who have kept S alive--most notably S Helper Service, American Models, and Hundman Publishing with their magazine for the S hobbyist--but few others have shown much interest simply because the market that exists today isn't large enough to make it worth their while from an investment perspective. Can't really blame them for that, I suppose--especially in today's demanding and overly finnicky market. No matter what they made, some small but vocal group out there would complain that the details aren't right; that they offered it in the wrong roadname; that the paint or lettering isn't correct; or any of 100 other little gripes. The manufacturers would be darned if they do, and darned if they don't, so why bother?

In a way, though, you're actually lucky to have found what you need for your layout, and you can be comfortable and happy in knowing that you have something that is distinctive and that can't be acquired by simply walking into any hobby shop. You had to work to get the things that you wanted for your layout, and now you can reap the rewards of that effort, no matter how long it took. In that respect, you're a whole lot better off than a good many in the O gauge crowd, who now have storerooms full of trains, with more coming in all the time, and not much of a clue as to what to do with them.

I'm not particulary sympathetic to your cause. Instead, I'm rather envious because you set a goal for yourself; went out and tracked-down what you wanted and needed; and now are well on your way to a layout that is likely to bring you many years of pleasure, combined with more than a few fond memories. Doesn't get much better than that!

[siberianmo]

Sturgeon-Phish Jim

Appreciate your comments - seems we share similar goals. I'm Grandpa to 5 ..... [swg] Runnin' the S requires a lot less concern than with the HO!

Allan Miller

Well thought out Post and enjoyed reading it. Only issue I have is your reference to sympathic to your <my> cause. Huh [?] Don't quite get that - I surely wasn't looking for sympathy in any form. Commentary, like yours, was the purpose.

You couldn't be any more on the mark with regard to having something distinctive that cannot be found in the LHS - that's an understatement! The market is just not there - plain and simple. Nonetheless, S-gauge really is a great not only to look at, but the quality I've witnessed from American Models and S-Helper Service is indeed commendable. I question how they thrive and survive with a less than full court press to attract new hobbyists. That's kind of the gist of why I Posted my comments .... they just aren't competing very well - and largely for the reasoning you provided.

My modeling choices for HO were VIA Rail of Canada - BC Rail of Canada - Amtrak - CN and CP Rail of Canada for freight ops. Now there is no way I'd find any of those in sufficient choices (with the exception of one consist of Amtrak w/F40PH from American Models - but the cars are not prototypically close when it comes to the number of windows.......). Picky, picky, picky. So, I say - they are either toys or not. If you bill them as scale then ensure they are. If they are toys - so be it. Getting back to the point of this paragraph - obviously I found everything I required in the HO inventory through Walthers and other sources. A huge market is responsible for the wide selection .... My first choice for S-gauge was eliminated at the get-go because of non-availability - same for the second. So, I wound up with perhaps the best I could have ever imagined. I love the MoPac EMD E8 from American Models and 4 Budd passenger cars in IC livery. Fantastic! Ditto for the F7A from S-Helper Service pulling my freight consist and a GP-35 from AM for additional freight in MoPac livery. All worked out for the best. [yeah]

Appreciate your comments and thanx for the kind words! [tup]

Tom

[Anonymous]

Bad choice of words (or word) on my part, Tom! I know you weren't looking for sympathy; just presenting things as they are based on your personal adventure into S gauge.

However, I expect there are more S-gaugers out there then might be imagined at first glance--enough, at least, to keep a few firms going and apparently growing, and to keep the "S Gaugian" magazine publishing. Certainly the numbers don't compare to what is seen in O gauge, and I assume that most of them don't participate in on-line discussion groups because nearly all of the larger ones seem to focus on other scales. But I imagine there may be a Yahoo group or two devoted to S scale. I know that's where I had to go to exchange information about my long-standing Z scale interest (now there's a small but growing niche--literally).

There's obviously a market for S scale, and I imagine that if I was starting over in the hobby, it may very well be the scale I would look most closely at. There's something to be said for being in what mght be considered a minority scale, where items are released on a more reasonable basis. Certainly is easier on the wallet, and it affords time for folks to engage in the more creative aspects of the hobby rather than devoting most of their efforts to accumulating closets full of "stuff."

You may already be familiar with "S Gaugian" magazine. If not, you may find that to be a decent source for leads relating to your future product needs. I haven't seen an issue for some time (I used to buy it at the Great American Train Store when they were in business), but I imagine they do a pretty good job of letting folks know what's out there. A Google search under their name should lead you to them if you aren't already aware of their existence.

Happy railroading to you and yours!

[siberianmo]

Alan Miller

No problem, I understand where you are & were coming from ...... [tup]

Undoubtedly there are S-gaugers out there. I've posted a couple of inquiries into this or that over the past several months, and the responses were quite credible and helpful. So, they are out there ......

One thing I've noticed about this hobby of ours is that there seems to be no end to the defensive nature of what one happens to be into, and quite frankly that is puzzling. People watching and behavioral studies are of interest to me (Anthropology was a biggie in college) and it is interesting to witness the emotions that are evoked from something as simple as Posting a question or an opinion on the Forums. Perhaps you've witnessed much of the same - I try to avoid most of the diatribes, but there are times .......... [tdn]

My interests in model railroading really are consistent with having fun with whatever level of it that I'm fortunate enough to acquire and develop. Presently it's HO - O (shelf system for Lionel's Polar Express) - S-gauge and G (LGB at Christmas). N and Z await! [swg] Not really - I think we're saturated 'round here with trains. [swg]

I found that my inventories of stuff from former HO pikes have been better placed in wall mounted display cases than in their original boxes, stored away until there's an Estate Sale. <grim> There is a certain degree of joy to be had in viewing the rollilng stock and loco's of days gone by - of railroads that I used to really enjoy. Time moves on and now I'm into more of a modern day effort with my primary layout - HO. The S-gauge keeps me in the 50's-60's, even if only on a 7x8 ft layout. It's fun. [yeah]

About two and one half years ago I checked into S-gauge before constructing my Can-Am HO layout in my basement. In those days the basement was unfinished and even the throught of a train room was simply a dream - nothing even in the planning stages. I contacted a few guys regarding their opinions of S-gauge, one being Don Heimburger of Heimburger House. I couldn't believe the great and informative info that I received from these S-gauge folks. Extremely helpful and very encouraging.

I should back up just a bit. My HO layout had been completely dismantled with all the rollling stock and loco's stored away. For an assortment of reasons, I thought my interests had waned. The room I had constructed was turned over to my wife for her purposes and everything I had was out of sight. A friend of mine rekindled the flame and I began to think about getting back into the hobby - but with S rather than HO. For a parameter I wanted to maintain was to start anew - everything - nothing from the past.

Fast forward a bit. Don and his "guys'" helped me discover the many and varied facets of G-gauge. I subscribed to the S-Gaugian - even had a letter published thanking them for their help. Then when it came time to actually move on putting together my list of things to buy did I find out the realities of S-gauge. Availability - selectivity - no one track system to meet all of my requirements, and the costs. The latter just was staggering. Consider that I was looking to fill up a space about 35 ft long with the widest point being a shade over 15 ft and multi-level at that. I wanted dual mainlilnes and a point to point run in my mountains. To make a long story (sorry) shorter - HO provided me with everything I wanted and at considerably less in my retirement dollars than S-gauge could ever have met. I'm not sorry, for my Can-Am layout turned out even better than I had hoped - and I'm hardly a modeler in that sense. Just a guy who loves trains.

About six months ago, the same friend told me that he knew someone who wanted to sell two vintage A.C. Gilbert AF sets - one Santa Fe passenger and the other an unidentified steam loco powered freight. Track included, but no power pack. I was interested. Unfortunately, the owner was out of the country and not expected back for a couple of months. This began the interest all over ........

Bottom line: I rediscoverd S-Helper Service and American Models. Thought about it and decided that rather than go with toy trains, I'd really prefer the S-gauge of today. So, that's how i got from there to here. A smaller layout - but sufficient to quench my desire for S-gauge! Never did hear from the guy who may still be out of the country ......

I seriously doubt that what I've put together will ever grow or become anything more than what it is. To me it's kind of like that train at Christmas - you set it up and let 'er rip! Of course, if you looked at the photo's, mine is just a tad more elaborate. [swg]

Nice chatting with you! [tup]

Tom