Lionel Standard Gauge Question

[Anonymous]

Can a Forum member speak from a legal position on what requirements must be met for Lionel LLC to resume manufacture of Standard Gauge items based on Lionel Corp. original designs such as the 200 series?

[spankybird]

I don’t believe it is a question of legality, but more finicality. Lionel sold off all the tooling many years ago. For them to produce this produce line would require ALL new tooling. This cost now becomes a question is the market place strong enough to compensate and provide a ’Return on your Investment’ .

[Anonymous]

No legalities involved at all. Strictly a matter of money and market size. Since MTH has pretty much captured the market for contemporary Standard Gauge, there's not much chance that you'll see Lionel venture back into that area, and you'll most definitely not see them go that route at this point in time.

[prewardude]

Let's not forget that they have produced some Standard gauge in recent years (the Hellgate bridge, the #840 power station, etc.). I think right now, considering the bankruptcy filing, they are probably more concerned with producing items that they know they can sell.

[Anonymous]

They actually did more than just a few accessories. They also had the CV and Hiawatha train sets--both very nice items that were slow movers on the sales floor. The mistake they made there was to try to issue more "contemporary" items in Standard Gauge (even MTH has largely avoided doing that, aside from applying more contemporary paint schemes to existing non-prototypical items). Most Standard Gauge operators and collectors seem to prefer the more toy-like renditions of earlier years, along with reproductions of those earlier pieces.

But you will almost certainly not see Lionel getting back into the Std. Gauge arena in any significant way. They can't afford that risk at the present time, and MTH has pretty much forged ahead in recent years and locked-up the market for current-era Standard Gauge releases. And their stuff is VERY nice--as good as, or in many cases better than, the originals (which certainly makes sense in light of the technological improvements that have been seen in the intervening years).

[3railguy]

If standard gauge becomes more popular than it is, Lionel can get it subcontracted as MTH has. Probably at the same cost. Lionel's edge over MTH is the "Lionel Lines" road name. Just like the origionals. Like others say, until they settle some legal scores, it's likely they are lying low at the moment with new product development. Time will tell.

[Anonymous]

MTH doesn't subcontract its Standard Gauge line any more than any other manufacturer already subcontracts their O gauge and other lines. MTH, in fact, has invested in dedicated plants overseas that make only MTH trains, whereas most manufacturers in all scales are using "shared" fcilities that manufacture trains for more than one importer.

And while it may be that some hobbyists still prefer--even demand--the "Lionel Lines" nameplates on their Standard Gauge stuff, my guess is that most who buy contemporary Standard Gauge items today (the newer items) don't much care whose nameplate is on the equipment. They are buying Standard Gauge for the look and feel of the item--a big, colorful, and often fanciful toy train--and not out of any brand preference. My personal feeling is that any edge Lionel may have had in that regard was lost some years ago when MTH began producing and promoting a steady stream of nicely done Standard Gauge reproductions--Ives, Dorfan, and Flyer, as well as Lionel. It's a significantly smaller market than O gauge, to be sure, but MTH has done a very good job of catering to that market's needs and wishes.

[prewardude]

I don't know, Allan; If push came to shove, and Lionel and MTH both made a reproduction of a Standard gauge item that was originally made by Lionel (such as the Hellgate), I would have to go with the Lionel name - even if it cost a little more. In fact I do own one of Lionel's repro Hellgate bridges from a few years back, for that very reason. Maybe I'm in the minority here.

That being said, we are in agreement that we probably won't be seeing any Standard gauge from Lionel, at least until they get their financial house back in order. More is the pity...

Regards,
Clint

[Anonymous]

Clint:

I don't know if you're in the minority here, or elsewhere, or if you're in the majority. Really doesn't matter all that much because toy trains are very much an individual pursuit, or certainly should be.

All I know for sure is that MTH alone has consistently served the Standard Gauge segment of the hobby in recent years, and I've yet to meet a consumer of MTH Standard Gauge who wasn't very well satisfied with the products, and with the value received for the dollar. I, too, fall into that grouping and have been buying MTH (and Lionel Classics, which were also made under MTH supervision) Standard Gauge pretty much since the time these reproductions were introduced. I've sold a number of pieces recently in order to focus my interests a bit more closely, but I thoroughly enjoy what I still have and will continue to add to my collection as Mike releases new products. The nameplate on the side of these contemporary versions is of no importance to me since none of them are originals. If I was buying/running original prewar Lionel items, it would make some difference. Today, all of these great toys are made in the same place by people who generally have no direct affinity with the products they're producing, and the real Lionel--the originator of what we know as Standard Gauge--is long gone in every way aside from corporate name.

Standard Gauge is great! Once the bug bites, it becomes somewhat contagious. I'm just glad that Mike Wolf's own first love is Standard Gauge, and that he has continued to make it possible for others to acquire and share that love.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: MTH doesn't subcontract its Standard Gauge line any more than any other manufacturer already subcontracts their O gauge and other lines. MTH, in fact, has invested in dedicated plants overseas that make only MTH trains, whereas most manufacturers in all scales are using "shared" fcilities that manufacture trains for more than one importer

I am aware ot that which is why I posted "MTH has" verses "MTH is" and I still think Lionel can be competitive using a subcontractor. You are right in saying "Lionel Lines" is meaningless to some but there are others who think otherwise. especially someone mixing origionals with reproductions. Or someone attempting to relive the magic. That may sound corny to you but it's the way some people feel and they are entitled to those feelings.

[Anonymous]

Oh, I completely agree with you in that regard, John. What I don't see happening is large numbers (in what is admittedly a small group to begin with) shunning Standard Gauge today because of a brand name. If they were, there would be no Standard Gauge market today (aside from existing collector cisrcles for the prewar items), and no new Standard Gauge offerings to supply that market. MTH would simply have dropped that line if it wasn't producing revenues for them.

So, while there may well be some who will not purchase Standard Gauge today because the items do not bear Lionel nameplates--certainly their choice to do so--that number is apparently not significant enough to adversely impact the market for contemporary reproductions. I would argue that the vast majority of folks in the hobby today are not even old enough to remember original Lionel Standard Gauge (myself included). The nostalgia factor is not really part of the equation in my case, and I suspect that is true for a good many others. We simply like these items because they are big, colorful, and thoroughly impressive toys.

[cheapclassics]

To all,

Here is my take on the situation. I buy MTH because it is available. Sure, it would be nice to have "Lionel Lines" on the side, but when the cars and engines are running, the name on the side is difficult to read anyway. While I appreciate the intent of MTH in making the same cars with different road and brand names on them, I think MTH and the market would be better served if they offered new styles of cars as in the 519 crane and work caboose sets, or equipped the Ives, American Flyer, and Dorfan cars with latch couplers that could be swapped out for the original design couplers. Another option is to make the same types of cars with different numbers such as 516,1516, 2516 for the hopper series. At the same time, I do think MTH did the standard gaugers a big favor by having Ready-to-Run sets in that size. My 384E runs like a champ, and sounds great with just the controls on the Z-1000.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[3railguy]

QUOTE: So, while there may well be some who will not purchase Standard Gauge today because the items do not bear Lionel nameplates--certainly their choice to do so--that number is apparently not significant enough to adversely impact the market for contemporary reproductions

Well, I don't think many would discriminate MTH because "Lionel Lines" is missing. What I meant when I said Lionel would have an edge over MTH with the Lionel name is many would steer to the Lionel reproduction over MTH because they say "Lionel Lines" Even if it meant paying a little more to some.

[prewardude]

That is where we are in agreement, John. I have no problems buying MTH's reproductions - in fact I bought the 384E freight set from them last year, and it is a beauty (runs beautiful, too)! BUT, if Lionel had made the same set, at the same time, I would have bought the Lionel version.

That being said, I am grateful that Mike Wolf is keeping Standard gauge alive. The guy just flat-out understands the hobby and the industry. That's more than I can say for Lionel's current management (with the exception of minority owners Kughn and Young).

Regards,
Clint

[Anonymous]

Okay, so let's assume that reproduction Standard Gauge trains bearing Lionel plates will sell to some unknown number of enthusiasts who will only buy Standard Gauge trains that bear Lionel nameplates. That's all well and good, because it's a hobby comprised of individuals who are free to make individual choices.

But let's also look at the reality of the situation. Lionel no longer makes Standard Gauge trains, and is not likely to make them again in either the near (almost certainly) or even forseeable future (highly likely). So that leaves those folks without any Standard Gauge trains--at least newer reproductions.

The alternative they have available is MTH Standard Gauge reproductions. That's really the only significant alternative currently available, with the exception of a few pieces offered by others, and it's likely to be the only alternative available for some time to come.

The result is that those wanting, waiting for, or hoping for new Lionel Standard Gauge--probably a small number within an already small overall number of Standard Gauge hobbyists--will not have Standard Gauge trains to enjoy and operate in their homes. Kind of a shame that they'll be left out of the fun, but one can't really feel sorrry for them because it's really just the result of their personal choice.

Would Lionel have an edge if they were to produce Standard Gauge trains again? Perhaps so, to some small degree. But Lionel doesn't make those trains now and is not apt to do so anytime soon. Those who are waiting are apt to have a long wait. So we're right back where we started, aren't we? If you want to enjoy ready-to-run contemporary Standard Gauge trains, you'll have to get them from the firm who makes them. The alternative is to do without.

[prewardude]

Now that we're all on pretty much the same page with the Lionel/MTH Standard gauge debate, shall we discuss Ives now? [;)] [:D]

[csxt30]

I always liked Ives, after I had a complete set a few years ago. Just culdn't quite keep my interest & I was a member of the Ives club then, too. Do you know if that club is still going? One of the officers worked in the Lionel store in Perry, Ohio then & had a lot of Ives on display there, & for sale. I don't know about now, though. Thanks, John

[prewardude]

I don't have any Ives... yet. I've been keeping an eye on the repro Ives products the MTH has been offering recently, and it's only a matter of time now. My biggest obstacle is my budget!

[Anonymous]

Lionel, Ives, Dorfan, Boucher, Flyer, McCoy, CMT, Forney, Roberts Lines, JAD, Liberty Lines, Joe Mania, Pride Lines, Rich-Art, T-Reproductions, Williams. . . makes no difference to me because all were and/or are great toys. Most are gone today, of course, but the spirit of Standard Gauge remains alive and well in the splendid reproductions that are currently being offered by a very few. And, those with deep pockets and an insatiable appetite for the search can still find originals of most makes.

[cheapclassics]

I sent a suggestion to MTH to remake the Ives 177x series of cars. These were Lionel 500 series cars with Ives Lines markings and numbers. These are extremely rare as I have seen very few on eBay, and I think they were made for only one or two years in the early 30s.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[Anonymous]

On the subject of Ives, I believe that MTH now owns the name "Ives" and the reproductions from MTH do bear "Ives Railway Lines" name plates.

By the way, shouldn't we be saying "Wide Gauge" when referring to Ives (and American Flyer) items?

[prewardude]

You're absolutely right, RAK - MTH does now own the Ives name. From everything I have read, Lionel let the trademark expire sometime during the Moreau or Maddox time period, and Mike Wolf snatched up the name.

As to the "Wide Gauge" designation... I guess we should use it in reference to Ives and Flyer, but it's still Standard gauge, any way you slice it. [;)]

Regards,
Clint

[cheese3]

If they went back into the standard guage market I would be a loyal costomer

[Anonymous]

Just my opinion, but about the last thing the Standard Gauge segment of the hobby needs is brand loyalists. My feeling is that most of those who enjoy Standard Gauge--especially contemporary Standard Gauge--derive enjoyment from these great and colorful trains irrespective of the nameplate on the sides of the items they own. I enjoy studying the history and evolution of Standard (and Wide) Gauge, but the trains I have today--thanks almost solely to Mike Wolf and MTH--are purchased for what they are today, and not because they bear some specific maker's plates. I'm perfectly content to leave brand loyalty issues to the O gauge crowd, who seem to be doing a pretty good job of curtailing the future growth of that segment of the hobby.

[prewardude]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

I'm perfectly content to leave brand loyalty issues to the O gauge crowd, who seem to be doing a pretty good job of curtailing the future growth of that segment of the hobby.

LOL - ain't THAT the truth! Some of the brand-loyal flame wars I have read are almost beyond imagination, considering they were written by grown men. [sigh]

[cheapclassics]

Does anyone where the 2005 Volume II Tinplate Traditions catalog is posted online? MTH does not appear to have it on their website. Thank you.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[Anonymous]

Well, you can certainly call them Wide Gauge if you care to because that is, indeed, what the originals were called. However, that terminology evolved as more of a legal consideration than anything else (Lionel registered "Standard Gauge," and effectively closed the door on the competition. . . sounds a bit familiar, doesn't it?).

Anyhow, since the gauge is not all that popular today (when one considers the overall hobby of toy trains and model railroading)--except for folks like me and perhaps a thousand or so more--using the term Standard Gauge for all makes simplifies things and most definitely makes things easier for novices who may want to explore these great toy trains. About the last thing this hobby needs is anything that would add more confusion in consumer minds.

[Anonymous]

Does anyone know if MTH is offering the 200 series, 214R Refigerator Boxcar?
Years ago I traded that car (Like New/Boxed) for a Standard Gauge Loco. Turns out it's the only trade I've ever regretted.
BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com