K-Line Sued Again?

[Anonymous]

Someone posted the text of the UP vs. K-Line lawsuit on one of the other train boards. Here is a link to part one,
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/453102703/m/6141003213
and a link to part two,
http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/453102703/m/6551003213

To view these pages, pull up the page, and then click on the lower left where it says, "view full size". You can then use the right and left arrows at the bottom right hand corner of the page to move to the next page and stay at full size view.

I hope I am not violating any rules by posting these links. I think the lawsuit is of interest to the general community of rail hobbyists, but I apologize sincerely if I am breaking any rules with this.

Not sure why UP is picking on K-line but I wonder if they thought that K-Line is in no position to fight back now, and if K-Line settles, they will have precedent (can you have precedent if it is just a settlement and not a court judgement???). Anyway, I think they saw their chance to make a "big 3" train maker capitulate on this licensing issue and they went for it. I don't think they have a case against Lionel. For one thing, Lionel has been making UP stuff for generations and I think that dilutes the UP case. Also, and I don't have any details, the Lionel people insist that they actually do have UP permission to make UP branded items. I wi***hat some wealthy person who really is into model trains would personally pay for the very best lawyers to defend the train makers on this, but I guess that may not happen.

[Anonymous]

Aristo-Craft also charges extra for UP items, as do several other manufacturers. Not the best solution to the problem, to be sure, but certainly a fair solution under the circumstances since it does not impose this "tax" on consumers who do not care for UP products and/or do not support the UP licensing policy. I can't imagine how anyone could see it as less than fair to have those who consume the products foot the bill.

[okiechoochoo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

QUOTE: Originally posted by okiechoochoo

I haven't seen any big price increase on UP or fallen flag models produced by Atlas. Where is the big ripoff.

You haven't seen a price increase because Atlas is likely amatorizing the increase across the entire product line. In other words, everyone who buys Atlas is paying the UP a royalty when they purchase an Atlas product. Folks whine and gripe about rising costs. Well, just add this to the list of reasons for those increases.

To my way of thinking, UP fans should be footing the bill for those licensing fees and royalties (as some manufacturers are doing); not supporters of other non-affilated roads. If UP charges a fee and royalty, and if you are a UP enthusiast, then YOU should be the one to pay for the "privilege" of owning those items.

Nothing unfair about that, is there?

That would be fair and I know that on some N scale locomotives that Kato did just that I think. I am willing to bet that if the 3 rail manufacturers handled this in that manner that there would still be tons of people upset. Why, when it would be fair

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

QUOTE: Originally posted by okiechoochoo

I haven't seen any big price increase on UP or fallen flag models produced by Atlas. Where is the big ripoff.

You haven't seen a price increase because Atlas is likely amatorizing the increase across the entire product line. In other words, everyone who buys Atlas is paying the UP a royalty when they purchase an Atlas product. Folks whine and gripe about rising costs. Well, just add this to the list of reasons for those increases.

To my way of thinking, UP fans should be footing the bill for those licensing fees and royalties (as some manufacturers are doing); not supporters of other non-affilated roads. If UP charges a fee and royalty, and if you are a UP enthusiast, then YOU should be the one to pay for the "privilege" of owning those items.

Nothing unfair about that, is there?

NO MOR ATLAS FOR ME
.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by okiechoochoo

I haven't seen any big price increase on UP or fallen flag models produced by Atlas. Where is the big ripoff.

You haven't seen a price increase because Atlas is likely amatorizing the increase across the entire product line. In other words, everyone who buys Atlas is paying the UP a royalty when they purchase an Atlas product. Folks whine and gripe about rising costs. Well, just add this to the list of reasons for those increases.

To my way of thinking, UP fans should be footing the bill for those licensing fees and royalties (as some manufacturers are doing); not supporters of other non-affilated roads. If UP charges a fee and royalty, and if you are a UP enthusiast, then YOU should be the one to pay for the "privilege" of owning those items.

Nothing unfair about that, is there?

[okiechoochoo]

If you all will wait a little while, UP will get around to the rest of the manufacturers. Now John, you know Martha had it coming

[3railguy]

As far as liscencing fees are concerned, I don't understand why companies would want money from someone advertising their product. Usually it's the other way around. I can understand paying money for a "Free Martha" T shirt but that's a different story. the poor girl was lynched.

[Anonymous]

I don't have a problem if all the 3-rail O gauge manufacturers have to comply with UP's Licensing requirements. However, It's very unfair for the UP to single out K-Line.

I understand that the UP has been in touch with K-Line for some time now over K-Line's unauthorized use of UP Trademarks, and it's any ones guess how K-Line responded.

Perhaps they chose to charge K-Line because K-Line has cranked out a vast number of special UP cars, most of which carried high price tags?

Anyway, here's some UP Big Boy Box Cars from my collection. The top car is a Weaver; center car is K-Line; bottom car is MTH.



The Union Pacific Licensing Program...
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/licensing/index.shtml

BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller


I have negotiated licensing agreements with some of the biggest brands in the world over the years: Coca-Cola, Mattel, Walt Disney, Harley Davidson, and a number of others.

Color me impressed! LOL[:p]

[trigtrax]

Well nobody has really come up with solid info to the question I asked... namely is the lawsuit fact or just another O-gauge rumor?

[okiechoochoo]

I don't think "attempting" is the correct word. They are going to be sucessful. It would be cheaper, IMHO, for the train companies to follow what Atlas did and sign an agreement. I haven't seen any big price increase on UP or fallen flag models produced by Atlas. Where is the big ripoff. UP has the legal right to do this or they couldn't enforce it. We might all well learn to live with it as it is a done deal. Oh, I don't work for the UP but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[Anonymous]

Folks: There is licensing, and then there is LICENSING. In the first instance, the licensor just wants to assure that his trademarks are being properly used, and in a quality manner. There is no fee charged for this, and the licensee simply agrees to allow the licensor to review the product before it is made. It's a kind of "sign-off" on the item, and about all the licensee has to do is agree to follow the licensor's guidelines in terms of trademark display, and perhaps provide them with a few freebies when the final product is made.

In the second instance, the licensor wants both control and money. That is what UP is asking. That is NOT what CSX (and perhaps others) is asking in their licensing agreement.

I have negotiated licensing agreements with some of the biggest brands in the world over the years: Coca-Cola, Mattel, Walt Disney, Harley Davidson, and a number of others. In no case did I (my employer, actually) pay a fee or royalty for the licensing agreement negotiated. We, as licensors, provided the trademark owner approval rights over the product, and that's about it. They wanted to make sure that the colors used were correct, that the mark was properly rendered, and that the product conformed to their expectations in terms of quality and conformance to their corporate image--perfectly reasonable and fair expectations. In some cases they didn't even ask for all of that because they were familiar with our product line and past history.

Is UP being greedy and are they attempting to screw the model-making industry and other related enterprises? You bet your bippy they are!

[okiechoochoo]

I seems to me we spend extra for licensing on about everything we probably buy. I would imagine Coke and Disney and all kinds of clothing get a little something for the names on them. I don't hear us squaking about that. I have noticed Atlas in continuing to make HO and N scale items with UP and the fallen flags roadnames on them and I have not noticed any price difference to speak of. What's the big beef. We readily spend a grand or more on a locomotive so what's another $10 for the road name. CSX I hear is following UP on this and soon they will all do it. It is just going to be a way of life. I guess we could go back to Lionel and Wolf Lines.

[Bob Keller]

It isn't just model railroading. Aircraft makers like Boeing are demanding that model kit companies pay royalties for making kits of their aircraft (like B-29s and B-52s), and the alarms have been sounding in the plastic kit community for a year or so. In fact, it is the cover story in the new Model Retailer magazine, which is a trade title that we publish.

The venerable Trains magazine editor David P. Morgan would, from time to time, go back to the old saying that whether or not somthing was a crisis depended on who's Ox was being gored.

FWIW I've been seeing little licensing icons (Ford, Chevy, etc.) on some brands of die-cast vehicles for some time. That may be where all of this started. Thanks Matchbox!

[iguanaman3]

QUOTE: Perhaps K line should just pay UP or sign a agreement or whatever UP wants. Just wondering, have the other 3 rail manufacturers like MTH, Williams and Lionel signed with UP. I heard Atlas did in for HO and N but not sure if Atlas O did. Seems to be the simple way to go and avoid a lot of expense.

Atlas is the only o guage maker so far to sign with UP. Apparently UP has not been easy to make a deal with. MTH has had to make yellow and grey locos without UP logos already and Lionel had to recall a run of UP diesels. UP PAYS to have there logo shown in their TV commercials, but when it comes to toy trains they want big bucks. Oh and it's not only the UP name but they want royalties for their fallen flag names too....MoPac, Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, CNW, and more.
Neil

[Anonymous]

You Know that the trends being set up by all these SUITS that the only winners just might be the "Lawyers" of all this. seems to me,highly oppioniated of course, that the real loserswould be the general TRAIN BUYING PUBLIC.I myself am *** tired of he said they said/did/not/stole/trademark infring/ what next? what price???

[okiechoochoo]

Perhaps K line should just pay UP or sign a agreement or whatever UP wants. Just wondering, have the other 3 rail manufacturers like MTH, Williams and Lionel signed with UP. I heard Atlas did in for HO and N but not sure if Atlas O did. Seems to be the simple way to go and avoid a lot of expense.

[trigtrax]

QUOTE: Originally posted by redneckgoober

Why is Tony Lash so concerned with K-Line? I thought he was the top MTH booster and moneyman.

Trigtrax, are you the guy who sells bridges out of his basement in the Bronx?

Tony Lash has a huge train collection.. He owns lots of Lionel but does prefer MTH. Rumors have always circulated about him lending money to MTH but I don't believe there's any truth to it.

He's closely followed the MTH/Lionel lawsuit and as far as I know was the first to come up with the Lionel/K-line story.

As for myself, It's a Dungeon in Brooklyn not the Bronx. If your interested in what I manufacture there check the website www.steeltoys.com

[3railguy]

JUS PAY DA MONEY K-LINE

[Anonymous]

Why is Tony Lash so concerned with K-Line? I thought he was the top MTH booster and moneyman.

Trigtrax, are you the guy who sells bridges out of his basement in the Bronx?

[Anonymous]

If true, it would amount to something of a corporate gang-bang on poor, old K-Line. I don't know what they may have done to deserve so much bad news in such a short period. It would be kind of sad to see yet another of the big three forced into bankruptcy.

[dougdagrump]

Maybe their legal dept is trying to justify their budget. [:D]

[TrainFreak409]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trigtrax

Tony Lash posted on another forum that UP has filed a suit against K-line..
Any information on this new development?

Well, I haven't heard it, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did. I think UP has gone a bit loopy with the lawsuits.[:p]

[trigtrax]

Tony Lash posted on another forum that UP has filed a suit against K-line..
Any information on this new development?