Interview w/ Mike W.

[FJ and G]

I esp. enjoyed the latest CTT interview w/MTH leader, Mike. I really learned quite a bit incl.

difference between using someone's blueprint and reverse engineering

how to grow the world's greatest hobby and opening up York to more people

I agreed with the majority of everything Mike said but am not quite sure I fully agree with 2 of his assessments

1. TV advertising ineffectual. He may be right on this could since cable has really diluted the market and ads are overpriced. However, TV ads placed in the right target audience, e.g. a action starter set for kids or more traditional stuff for the age 55+, might grow the hobby more than he thinks. Again, it is "smart" advertising.

2. Mike's philosophy that brick and mortar is the mainstay. I would say that 5 years ago that may have been the case, but if you want to build a new base of younger kids, you need to tap into the power of the Internet. Perhaps create some MTH blog sites (that are sanctioned my Mike and allowed to run with minimal controls, ie high, risk, high gain). Also, demos in the form of "short takes" could be floated on the Internet, perhaps with a story line or something humorous.

I admire Mike's foray into tin plate, his risks in producing DCS, and his creativeness in using the Harley and other brands. Man oh man did I misjudge the consumer markets. Never realized just how popular licensed products really are.

I'm a big MTH fan, though I have a soft spot for all brands of trains. I'm not, however a fan of their track, though as Mike mentiones, they were the first to come out w/plastic roadbed.

Looking forward to other in-depth interviews w/other companies--if they have the willingness to engage as Mike did.

This is a good piece of journalism from an interview perspective (as opposed to an investigative piece).

Oh, one other thing. Seems Mr. Williams realized Mike's ambitions and potential when he told them this was his last pay raise. :-)

[brianel027]

I'll know better from when I actually get to read the whole interview as to what I think. I did read the excerpt that is on the CTT main page:

"I've had dealers tell me they weren't going to put out a ProtoSound 2.0 locomotive until they've sold all their old ProtoSound locomotives. What's that consumer going to do? He'll go to another store to make his purchase."

"I'd say that most of the products being dumped aren't our products. But it is partially our responsibility to make sure we don't overproduce, which is why consumers have to order our trains in advance."

The thing from my perspective is that dealers and customers don’t want to pre-order, and the PS1-PS2 changeover is one example of a good reason why. Mr. Wolf is right in that the customer who wants PS2 will go to another store. But what is that first retailer to do? Risk buying more inventory to have that soon be outdated too????

Technology is cool. But there needs to be some compatability. That also goes for operating couplers and 3-rail train track. While the various companies are trying to make more money for themselves, they are also making it so much harder for the newcomers to the hobby to figure this all out. At least in the old days, 027 track was just that and was compatable.

I also recall Mr. Wolf in the last CTT interview of why he was so insistent on being paid for product on time. He should understand then, why a dealer doesn't want to take a bath on inventory items that have been outdated by changes in technology. Of course, this kind of thing happens... that's the nature of technology moving forward. But I can also understand someone's reluctance to order inventory or pre-order product if you have been burned.

"Word of mouth is the most important vehicle that the industry has."

Mr. Wolf is absolutely right. This is true of any business. But without trying to start up another civil war, the hard feelings and animosity that are so prevalent in the hobby now over brand allegiance can be doing no good.

For a first time visitor to check out any 3-rail train forum and read topics that are attacking or proclaiming how much better one company is over another is detrimental to the hobby in a very big way. Even worse is when the attacks are prompted by people who obviously favor one company over another – and then the attacks get personal, which has absolutely to do with having fun running trains.

I recently talked to someone who was considering getting a train set. He told me he chanced upon one of the T.L. threads ages ago and was so disgusted by the whole topic, he said he would never ever buy MTH train set if he decides to do this and would probably look to find another hobby.

It is somewhat sad and ironic that the man that is so widely credited with doing so much to bring the hobby to where it is today might ultimately undo much of the good he and his company has done all by himself.

Personally I think MTH makes some nice stuff, but I own scant very little of it. They simply make very little that a modeler like me can run. RailKing was always a little big on the size end, and now it is nearly full scale. What RailKing stuff I have, I have altered and modified to make it appear smaller. And I don go for all the electronic bells and whistles (so to speak).

Unfortunately the train buying market is not big enough to support all these companies in the way they want to be patronized. And as is human nature, none of them it seems is going down without a good fight. Again, too bad the fight has gotten so ugly.

[Anonymous]

though as Mike mentiones, they were the first to come out w/plastic roadbed.

Wonder if the folks ar Kato are aware of this?

[nblum]

Many of us have learned to view with scepticism those who loudly proclaim their own great achievements while disparaging those of their competitors. A recipe for hard feelings at best and ultimate fall from grace at worst.

[Anonymous]

I read the article and was pretty impressed. I have had a bad impression of Mike Wolf because of the Lionel lawsuit. I actually have more MTH locomotives than Lionel, but Lionel is like Apple Pie and Baseball -- it IS America. So, I've been kind of miffed at him for suing "America". But I came away with a different opinion after reading the article. He mentions how he tried to settle the case and could not even get a counter proposal from Lionel, much less a settlement. I have to admit, that if I had been Mike Wolf, I'd have had to go through with the lawsuit, too. I also have to say that he really seems to have pushed the innovations of the trains, too. My MTH Reading T-1 is much nicer than my Lionel Reading 4-6-0 Camelback, although nothing beats the Lionel sounds. That camelback's whistle is so awesome that I sometimes have to turn around and look behind me to make sure there is not really a genuine locomotive in my train room. I'm not a good judge of whether Lionel is better than MTH or the other way around. I only collect Reading steam era locomotives, and Lionel only has the Camelback from a few years ago, and the 0-6-0 docksider. MTH has several modern era Reading steam engines, and they are really nicely detailed, and they run really smoothly. The DCS, TMCC, TMCC2 thing is nothing to me. I don't see so good, and I really don't like remote control handsets. I can do OK with a cell phone, but even something like a pocket PC is too hard for me to use. When I hike with a GPS, I have to use a magnifier, so I am not interested in command control for trains. I'm sure it is awesome, both DCS and TMCC, but I am more comfortable with the throttle handles on the ZW. Anyway, I have a much more positive attitude about Mike Wolf now. I officially forgive him for suing Lionel, and I have to admit, I love the Reading steam locomotives that MTH has made.

[Anonymous]

"though as Mike mentiones, they were the first to come out w/plastic roadbed."

"Wonder if the folks ar Kato are aware of this?"
---------------------------

He's referring to O gauge track, of course, since that's what he makes.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

Many of us have learned to view with scepticism those who loudly proclaim their own great achievements while disparaging those of their competitors. A recipe for hard feelings at best and ultimate fall from grace at worst.

MTH's advertising constantly knocks Lionel, yet many of thier products are replicas of old Lionel's trains. I think that's low. If Lionel is/was so lousy, why is MTH replicating thier stuff?

Jim

[IRONROOSTER]

I thought the interview was very good. MTH seems to be doing a number of innovative things that other O manufacturers aren't. I notice that a number of steam locomotives in their premier line are available with scale wheels. This should boost sales. If he decides to jump into the S scale market, I for one will consider his products. (While I don't know all the details of the lawsuit, it seems a jury found that Lionel and it's contractors had stolen MTH blueprints and the result was harm to MTH.)
Enjoy
Paul

[trigtrax]

IMO, Mike Wolf and folks like him represent the future of O-Gauge Trains. He's willing to take chances and try out new things. Anybody can make rehash Postwar and call something a 6464 but MTH is now the innovative force in O-Gauge.. Just look at subways, while Lionel keeps taking surveys MTH keeps cranking out sets. And I believe that Milwaukie Bi-Polar is one of the most beautiful engines ever produced.

[nblum]

<<He's willing to take chances and try out new things.>>

The biggest advance by far in three rail O gauge is the advent of command control.

TMCC 1995-1996 DCS 2002 ---says it all IMO.

He's a little slow on the uptake for trying important new things :).

[tgovebaker]

Having grown up with Lionel and then disconnecting from the hobby for nearly 20 years (high school, college, etc.), I was really struck by the amazing diversity of product available, and by the tremendous technological advances. Mike Wolf should definitely get some of the credit. When I was a kid, I had never heard of him, or of MTH. At the same time, Atlas seems to be setting the standard on realism and detail, and Lionel's TMCC technology was first to market. In addition, as jaabat points out, much of MTH's growth was built on Lionel's image, history, and product line (in fairness, so is much of Williams' growth today). The jury, of course, found Lionel liable, and Mike Wolf's use of legally unprotected Lionel postwar designs, though somewhat unseemly, was a good business decision (and Lionel's folly).

I always say that we're better off for the competition, and the sheer diversity of product available today. While I'm grateful for some of Mike Wolf's contributions and innovations, on balance I probably wouldn't invite him to my next cocktail party.

[Anonymous]

FJ&G Posted I'm a big MTH fan, though I have a soft spot for all brands of trains. I'm not, however a fan of their track, though as Mike mentiones, they were the first to come out w/plastic roadbed

Marx/Allstate made plastic roadbed 40 YEARS AGO.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Perception, yes perception.....

When my friends refer to my trains, I have never heard them say, "You should see Buckeye's Mike Trains". They commonly say, "You should see Buckeye's Lionel Trains." (I have a hound dog mixture of everything and anything.)

When Mike get's this problem solved, he has become an American Icon. Yes, he is paving the way into new exciting technology, but so did the Edsel, the Duesenberg, and the Studebaker.

Time will tell as it always does.[^]

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Perception, yes perception.....

When my friends refer to my trains, I have never heard them say, "You should see Buckeye's Mike Trains". They commonly say, [i]"You should see Buckeye's Lionel Trains." . . .

Time will tell as it always does.[^]

Exactly, and I get disgusted when I see MTH bash Lionel's product on one page of their catalog, then glom onto Lionel's heritage on another by trying to recreate 2 post-war sets. To read the copy under those 2 sets, you'd think it was MTH, not Lionel, who made those original sets 50 - 60 years ago. Very selective propaganda, I mean advertising on MTH's part.

Williams makes Lionel replicas, but they put a positive spin on it. As far as I know, they don't put down the very company they're emulating.

Saying "Lionel" means toy trains to a lot of people the same way "Coke" means soda or "Kleenex" means tissues, and it's always going to be that way, whether MTH likes it or not.


Jim

[jonadel]

Pretty good interview, IMO but hardly worth getting into a shoving match.

Where's Mr. "Can't We All Get Along" when we need him?

Man, I'll be glad when this heat wave is over, it's been so hot here the farmers are feeding their chickens crushed ice to keep them from laying hard-boiled eggs.


Jon
[:D]

[Anonymous]

The interview with Mike Wolf was great! Mike deserves much of the credit for the revival of O gauge and the innovations that we see today. Lionel would be much better off if he was the owner instead of the venture capital bean counters that now control it.

[TrainFreak409]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Rivet Counter

The interview with Mike Wolf was great! Mike deserves much of the credit for the revival of O gauge and the innovations that we see today. Lionel would be much better off if he was the owner instead of the venture capital bean counters that now control it.

I'll agree with that statement.[:D]

I've talked with Mike Wolf personally when he came to the train store I work at. He is a nice guy, and offers very nice products, that are so much better than Lionel's in my opinion. We don't sell much Lionel at all, because everyone wants MTH.

[choochin3]

Doesn't reverse engineering just mean #ss backwards?

Carl T.

[nblum]

"He is a nice guy, and offers very nice products, that are so much better than Lionel's in my opinion. We don't sell much Lionel at all, because everyone wants MTH."

These are the types of wildly inaccurate, unfair, and self-serving comments that have contributed to the divisiveness in the hobby and industry, and incidentally earned Mike Wolf, MTH and their most ardent followers the public reputation they now have, which is not a good one, overall. It has obviously cost them sales and will continue to do so, IMO, as long as it continues and is encouraged.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trigtrax

IMO, Mike Wolf and folks like him represent the future of O-Gauge Trains. He's willing to take chances and try out new things. Anybody can make rehash Postwar and call something a 6464 but MTH is now the innovative force in O-Gauge.. Just look at subways, while Lionel keeps taking surveys MTH keeps cranking out sets. And I believe that Milwaukie Bi-Polar is one of the most beautiful engines ever produced.

I totally agree with the statement above! The latest Lionel catalog is disappointing to say the least. I was hoping that the new Lionel CEO would turn the company around but he appears to be all talk and no substance.

[nblum]

This and some of the postwar celebration, including space/military items may
interest the over 50 set such as myself:


6-31740 - 2519W VIRGINIAN DIESEL FREIGHT Nov 573.95 (Train Station pre-order price)

6-29613 - 6463 ROCKET FUEL TANK CAR Mar 35.95

6-29718 - 6419 WORK CABOOSE Feb 37.95

6-29827 - 3419 HELICOPTER LAUNCH CAR Jan 54.95

6-29828 - 3666 BOXCAR WITH CANNON Feb 54.95

6-29829 - 6805 ATOMIC WASTE DISPOSAL CAR Apr 54.95

6-29839 - 6512 CHERRY PICKER CAR Mar 49.95

6-29849 - 2460 LIONEL LINES CRANE CAR Feb 47.95

6-19572 - 6672 NEW YORK CENTRAL REEFER Mar 35.95

6-29719 - 6427 ATSF CABOOSE Jan 37.95

[nblum]

" And I believe that Milwaukie Bi-Polar is one of the most beautiful engines ever produced."

Personally I prefer the Lionel Phantom (any of the three) or Trainmaster Demonstrators but everyone is entitled to their opinion about what constitutes originality or beauty.

[3railguy]

The interview was summertime filler material.

Actually, Marx made the first O gauge roadbed track except it was rubber.

He is convinced his product is not being dumped yet states he won't sell to Toys-R-Us because they make him buy back unsold product. He also admits to have stiffed dealers with PS-1 engines that won't move because of the improved PS-2 versions.

The most classic statement is he reverse engineers prewar Lionel and calls himself a leader. LMAO.

[Anonymous]

Did Lionel forget that there used to be a railroad called the Reading Company and that they were America's largest anthracite carrier? The Reading Company was at one time the largest corporation in the world. The only main line steam engine that Lioenl has ever issued with modern features for the Reading was the 4-6-0 Camelback a few years ago. What gives? I love Lionel accessories, and I am using their O gauge tubular track for my layout, but I have mostly MTH engines because they seem to recall that there used to be a railroad called Reading... For that matter, while I appreciate that MTH has put out so many Reading steam engines, did MTH forget that the Reading was a COAL moving railroad? Why has Lionel put out at least 6 major coal loading accessories and MTH has none (dump cars don't count as "major"). Lionel has the 97, the 397, and the 497 coal loaders, the Coal Tipple set, the coal ramp, and the AF Seaboard Coaler. Nothing like that from MTH. Wow, I guess we really do need several major O gauge train companies because each has its strengths and weaknesses.

[Anonymous]

Whatever happened to the monthly online chats that Jerry Calabrese promised?

[nblum]

"Whatever happened to the monthly online chats that Jerry Calabrese promised?"

Best guess is he has nothing new to say at the moment and is also quite busy defending his company against the great innovator :).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

"Whatever happened to the monthly online chats that Jerry Calabrese promised?"

Best guess is he has nothing new to say at the moment and is also quite busy defending his company against the great innovator :).

My best guess is that Mike Wolf has him on the ropes and he knows it.

[nblum]

"My best guess is that Mike Wolf has him on the ropes and he knows it."

I'm sure he's hiding in a corner of the basement, quaking in fear :).

[3railguy]

QUOTE: My best guess is that Mike Wolf has him on the ropes and he knows it.

Actually, Mike wishes he had him on the ropes and pretty much stuck his foot in his mouth trying to give this impression as he contradicted himself in the interview. Rather comical reading really. Otherwise, the article on postwar Lionel F3's, the real stuff that MTH tries to copy, made the magazine worth every penny.

QUOTE: The Reading Company was at one time the largest corporation in the world. The only main line steam engine that Lioenl has ever issued with modern features for the Reading was the 4-6-0 Camelback a few years ago. What gives?

Sales. Reading has not been a big seller in any scale. You don't see it a lot. Color sells. With exception of the Bee Line Service scheme, Reading colors have been drab by comparison to more colorful roads such as SF, BNSF, GN, SP, etc.. The Lionel Reading T-1 from 1989 was my first die cast O gauge steam engine and it's always been a favorite because of the boiler face, pilot, and cab window styling. However, dealers had a hard time getting rid of them. Even below cost. Same goes for the Reading Trainmaster Lionel did in the early 90's.

[brianel027]

This thread has remained civil so far, but I can definitely sense the undercurrent of hard feelings coming through in some places. As I said before, it's kind of sad the chain of events over the years have led to so many hard feelings - especially since what MTH should really being offering the hobby is yet another option... competition... more choices. Which has happened, but not without some cost.

I've heard Mr. Wolf speak and it was very obvious to me at the time that he really loves the hobby. I could see the boyish excitement in his voice. But it also seems obvious from all the articles I've read, that he appears to have ax to grind against Lionel for the sudden end of the agreement they had years ago for MTH to make the standard gauge reproductions.

Certainly MTH has copied a good many Lionel products. On one side, it showed these products could be made with quality and priced better than Lionel products. No doubt that made many consumers happy. But while having made clones of many Lionel products, MTH also made many new products (particularly locomotives) that had never been done before in 3-rail trains. But I think MTH overuses the word "innovation." Yes, they have done some innovations, like the design of their smoke unit and the solid chassis design of their steam locomotive frames. On the other hand, I hardly consider reproductions with copycat postwar numbering to be innovative.

When it comes to actual innovation, I think Lionel still has that one in their hands. But when it has come to basic product construction, quality and variety, MTH has changed the hobby. When CTT did a survey on the most important things to happen in the hobby in recent years, Mr. Wolf was on that list. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that MTH has not made a contribution.

But that contribution seems to me to have faded a bit with the new civil war where the colors have changed from blue versus gray, to orange and blue versus purple and yellow.

I say what is better for one customer may not be better for the other. I can't argue that MTH doesn't make some decent quality trains. But they're not for me. And they're not for many others I've spoken with over the years for the same exact reason... they're too big. The quality of the typical MTH box car is better than many from Lionel, but I in the past going bought the Lionel starter set box cars and rolling stock because those are the SIZE of trains I want and need.

I like it when CTT reviews a "traditional sized" train engine like the recent Williams Alco’s, and lists under "Cons" that the size won't look right with scale sized trains! How about listing under "Cons" for the MTH and other engines that they are TOO BIG to look good on a small layout. This is the big deciding factor for me, and I've heard others say the same thing. I've been at shows and hobby shops when I've watched customers’ looking at the MTH stuff, exclaims it is too big, and then go purchase a car from Lionel. SIZE! Scale proportion should be listed under the "con" category. Not everyone wants full-scale proportions. For this reason and this reason alone, I haven't in the past bought MTH products. And their Rugged Rails line has been left to rust for the past 6 years until finally this year when the first new additions were added since the line was introduced. BTW I do have some Rugged Rails cars.

I've run a bunch of Railking locos on my layout including the Dash 9 and FP40 and they were all TOO big for my liking, though they did run very nicely - even without the speed control. I did really like the recent Railking SD90MAC, but not all the added electronics (and cost). I see this model has been added to the Rugged Rails line, so maybe if my money improves... maybe. But I'd have to see it first, and I don't see much MTH product in shops.

But I don't hate MTH. What I do dislike is the implication that their trains are better than everyone else’s. Not for me. Size matters, and the RMT "Beep" is one engine that is one my "one day to buy" list. Obviously with the success of the "Beep" others also agree.

MTH may have won the initial round in their legal battle. But whatever the outcome, they lost much of the good will and universal acclaim from the majority of train buying public that they once had.

As Mr. Wolf said, word of mouth is important. Right now that word of mouth seems to be very bitter and divisive. That ultimately may be a greater loss.