Prices of Motive Power

[Munster518]

I was just curious to see that kind of answers I would get if I asked this question: Why are some of the more "High End" locomotives so expensive. I mean, ranging from $1,000 and up[:0] and what is the difference between that of the same type of locomotive compared to an expensive one.

One company I've noticed that has high prices is 3rd Rail. The quality that is put into there products is amazing, but what do you do with a $1,300 dollar engine? Run it, I would be afraid to of fear of having a leap from the train table to the floor[B)].

I guess another way to look at this is that these locomotives are used as "shelf pieces" and not runners in some cases. But don't you want to see you investment being run, pulling cars, racing through tunnels, thats the fun of it right?

I just wanted to get different options from people on this topic and how they felt about some of these high prices, thanks.

Sincerely
John[8D]

[1688torpedo]

Hello John! The Prices of motive power is the Main Reason Gomez Addams does not get any invitations to visit Train Layouts[:)][;)] I share your concern about mishaps happening to a $ 1300.00 engine.However. Remember that most of the things we fear do not become a reality. Including a visit from Gomez. Have a nice day.

[Roger Bielen]

John - I think there are numorous reasons: for some its self satisfaction, knowing you have, and can afford, top of the line; others are feeding thier ego with having the bragging rights among thier peers; and others that desire the detail. No matter the reason, and there must be many, there is a market for the top end engines or they wouldn't be making them.

[Bob Keller]

When asked, I always say that you should buy rhe locomotive because you like it, not any projected return on investment.

I once bought a locomotive for $1,038 and was very happy. When I eventually wanted something else, I tried selling it in one of the club magazines for two or three issues for $600 but had no takers. I eventually sold it to a dealer with some other stuff and I figured I got $400 for it. But I went into it with no clear vision of "making a killing" selling it, though I was a bit disappointed few others seemed interested in this die-cast beauty.

I have found less expensive locomotives to be just as much fun (often more) than the $1,000+ models. So if you like it and can afford to write it off, go for it.

[FJ and G]

There are probably some good reasons locomotives are that expensive; but I think that one might be the old adage about raising the price to what the market can bear. In other words, if there are buyers and you are in business, keep raising the price as long as you are attracting consumers...and apparently, those consumers who buy them are very happy.

Now, you might want to ask their wives how happy they are (perhaps some of the wives bought them as a gift).

Today, I picked up a garden RR mag and the back cover shows a very lovely Mikado in G scale that takes 10' radius (diameter?) curves. It sells for over $1,000 but is live steam and remote control. Now for something like that, the price seems pretty reasonable.

Fortunately in O scale, we do have some more affordable locomotives. But even several hundred dollars for one seems a bit excessive to me.

But I'm sure there are more expensive hobbies. Auto racing for one.

[Anonymous]

I own a few peices of O scale that I managed to get cheaply at retail years ago. Mainly Lionel.

Today's prices are too high for me to consider reentry into O scale. Maybe eventually I'll put together a small 8 car train set with engine from ebay at less than retail.

I would need to choose my purchases wisely, wife would not approve of a set costing a total of 2000.00+ dollars hitting the floor.

[dougdagrump]

Since I don't have my own layout I joined a club that has a layout located in a public venue. When you sign up to run it is expected that you will have something on the tracks from the time the doors open til they close. For this reason, as well as initial cost, all of my engines except one were less than $350. Some were much less but required a little TLC and upgrades to TMCC & RS. Even without a major investment I try to reduce the amount of run time by alternating 2 or 3 loco's every hour to hour and a half. [^]

[Munster518]

Thanks everyone for there helpful options. I guess it all comes down to personal taste. For me, I like to stick with Postwar, but recently picking up a K-Line Mikado for $250 I couldn't resist. Thanks[:D]

Sincerely
John[8D]

[ChiefEagles]

Buy LN or VG used ones. Save a lot of $$$$$.

[brianel027]

There are a couple of very important points that have not been addressed here thus far.

One is that the market (at least the vocal market than can afford to attend YORK twice a year, every year) is mostly adult. Although Lionel has admitted that sales of starter sets and related lower end items are very strong (and increasing according to the previous Lionel CEO) an 8 year-old boy that gets a train set from his parents is not entirely likely to be an active participant on an internet train forum or be attending national train shows, unless he lives down the street from one.

Therefore it is the concerns and wants from the adult market that have cried out for more realism, more scale proportions and more electronic operating features. BUT this new product development means dramatic development and new tooling costs. I say dramatic because the 3-rail train market is a drop in the bucket compared to HO, and even HO is a drop in the bucket when compared to other hobby items. Therefore, higher prices have to be charged for these items where so much new tooling is involved. Of course, there is also the element of "perceived value." Certainly in the case of Lionel they do not want to drive down the collector after-sale prices, so they maintain a certain price level in order to do this. Again, the previous Lionel CEO alluded to as much in statements.

The other factor is not so much the adult train buying market, but the state of the 3-rail train industry. One can very easily get the impression the major companies absolutely hate eachother. They've made no secret that each one wouldn't mind seeing some other company go out of business. They are at each others throats as far as new product introductions go. Not one of them wants to be left behind in the dust while another company comes out with some new premiere item. They may not get the bulk of the sales, but the expensive top level trains do seem to get the most attention from both the train magazines and from the posting train forum audience.

Business has got to be tough for all the companies right now. They have all made cut backs, cost-cutting measures and reductions in employees in recent years. Cost-cutting measures are happening right now:
* Lionel hasn't advertised in any train magazine recently.
* K-Line didn't advertise in the past CTT issue for the first time ever that I can recall.
* K-Line is reportedly not going to issue a second edition catalog this year (which will undoubtedly fuel speculation that they are having money problems, though everyone seems to agree fewer catalogs would be a good idea).
* All the companies have had and continue to have problems meeting their product delivery deadlines, although dealers say Lionel is making the biggest improvement of all in this department.

There are blowouts from nearly all the companies on products nearly across the board, though there appears to be more blowouts on the high to mid end items than on the lower end stuff: but there are exceptions there too. I see the K-Line Husky Cars being blownout at 50% off.

Another thing to consider (without trying to sound like doom-n-gloom) is the northeast US has always been the strongest sector of the train buying audience. The last I knew, New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania were at the top end of train magazine subscriptions. They were also in the lead of having more train shops than other states. The northeast US has also been hit very hard by the losses of manufacturing jobs. Last year Ohio lost more jobs than any other state. These states have been the traditional bread and butter of the 3-rail train buying market, outside of I think Texas and California. Here in NYS, local train shops have told me local sales have dropped significantly.... the way they survive is with out of state mail order.

So is it any wonder that there are so many product blowouts. The market cannot handle so many higher end, expensive trains from so many companies. I'm sure if you sat in the board room of any given train company, they would like to see their own sales increase. You do that by either appealing to first time new buyers, or by pulling the rug out from under the competition's feet. This second idea seems to be the way things are going... offer more high end expensive items with superior features and superior detailing. Which brings us back to square one with new production/tooling costs.

It is so ironic that when one reads the train forums, there always seems to be no shortage of threads on how the companies should offer this variation and that variation of some unusual locomotive. And in some off beat road name no less. Just as it is also ironic that the two new separate sale loco items that seem to be drawing the most attention and very respectable sales are both affordable items with compromises on the features/detail level: the Lionel Dockside steamer and the RMT "Beep."

I could frankly care less about any train engine with a price tag over say $100 give or take. I've never paid more than $90 for a train loco and that was only once. $25-$50 has been my average. And I think there's a growing number of modelers who even if they can afford more, simply don't have the money to buy more, or already have too many trains to even want more. And when you put $1,300 MSRP locos on the cover of your catalog (as Lionel has) you scare away familes with kids who might like to enter the hobby.

Even with the tough economic times, I have talked to so many familes who really want to buy their kids a train set. The story is always the same: "too expensive." I have to show them that there are some affordable trains being made. BUT in a 150+ page catalog with 10 pages or so of affordable starter end stuff, well, you can understand how they missed it. The companies pu***he more expenisive stuff. The recent exception being K-Line with the Porter and the SuperStreets being on their catalog cover.

And the train companies are going to have to face the reality that they can't keep producing expensive newly tooled trains every single year, only to have to blow them out because they aren't selling enough of them. And the adult train buying market is going to have to accept it too (or pre-order for yoursef 500 of that unusual $1,000 loco you want to see made.

$250 for a K-Line Mikado is a prime example. I don't suspect K-Line is too happy about having to sell those locos for so much less than they wanted.... even if they are turning a profit. It's obviously not as much as they wanted. Dealers sure don't make money that way, unless they are offered the lower wholesale on the blowout items... and the majority of dealers never get offered the blowout wholesale prices. Never. So what they have in stock has to sit and collect dust until the mailorder places clear out their blowout inventory. No irony either that the numbers of small local dealers is continually dropping. Kinda sad for a hobby that inorder to attract newcomers, they need to see the stuff in person... just as we did years ago.

Also ironic when I think about the "glory day" postwar years of "toy" trains... what company survived the longest in it's orginal form? It wasn't the company that offered the most realism, or the most advanced features, or the most expensive trains. It was the company that continued to make affordable low end trains with simple engineering and features that bordered on genius... trains that working families could afford: MARX.

MARX Trains. A good closing though to where this hobby needs to head again, at least to a more significant degree than is currently offered.

And now back to our regularily scheduled thread on what's currently being shipped on the water that the majority of folks can't afford anyways.

[Jumijo]

I'm relatively new to the hobby, and am still learning the ropes. But in a short amount of time, I've discovered that you can spend as much or as little as you'd like. I was initially shocked when I saw those $1000+ priced locos and had serious doubts about continuing on in this scale. But I decided that the expensive, realistic scale locos aren't really my cup of tea. Even if I did have large sums of disposable money, I doubt if I'd buy any. I like the toy part of toy trains. I like O27! To me, realism is the worry of smaller scales.

Starter sets are a great and inexpensive way to purchase Railsound equipped locos. Internet auctions and blowout sales are another way to save money. As Chief suggested, buying used locos in like-new condition is a great way to save cash. In the past seven months, I've purchased seven locos and the most I paid was $149 for an entire starter set that included a steamer with Railsounds. My latest purchase was a B&M Beep brand new for only $47.00.

Jim

[Bob Keller]

Chief Eagles and jaabat make some good points.

"Used" today generally doesn't mean "run into the tinplate." A few years ago I bought a "used" LTI NYC 4-8-2 for $675 (way below value) and I was tickled pink. When I got the loco I asked myself "This has been run?" In fact, the worst part was the box. I have since seen the same engine sell for as low as $325. Oh, that loco is in my "keeper" pile.

That having been said, I've bought a few MPC pieces on eBay for work that were good values, but in pretty poor shape (and you could see this in the photos). So just use caution. Otherwise, if you desire that larger locomotives, keep your peepers on the "used" ads, and you may find something in a price range you'll like.

And jaabat makes the essential point in all of this – you can spend as little or as much as you'd like. With products on the market today you can get a terrific looking "factory fresh" locomotive for way under $200 and build a fleet of rolling stock at a good price.

[cnw1995]

CTT has featured excellent small engines for as little as $100 - the K-Line Porters and Plymouths come immediately to mind - then there are the Beeps by RMT for about $70, and their new mini-RDCs. Fortunately, there are still some (relative) bargains in O items. That said, I am plain envious of those who can afford some of the top-end engines - they look fantastic and seem to run great too - some of the 3rd Rail pieces are truly works of fine craftsmanship.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again, I won't pay more than $350 for an engine. It's a good thing I don't like steam. I usually pick up TMCC diesels for around $250 on Ebay. Why would I buy 1 engine when I could have 4 or 5 for the same price?

As for the low end engines, they don't excite me either. I have 2 requirements for all of my engines, scale models and TMCC. I have plenty of non TMCC engines that I will be converting, at about $80 a piece.

[palallin]

You should dabble in 2-rail O: high end engines of the finescale, brass import variety generally go upwards of $2400. That leaves me trying to kitbash out of old AHM kits for steam ;-)

As for 3-rail, I picked up a Frisco Mikado (from '93) that originally retailed at $895 for $350. It had been run a few times, but not for even a whole hour. The box was a little rough, but I run all my stuff, so that's not relevant to me. It was one of two a friend acquired on eBay for that price; I've seen a couple more go for about that. It has early Railsounds and weighs nearly as much as the real engine along with nice lighting, but no TMCC, of course.

Now, if I could only find a Frisco Ten-Wheeler for a similar price!

[jonadel]

I've never had the resources to purchase high end loco's or the desire. That being said, last weekend I bought the new MTH BB1 for $630.00 and to me that was high end and that was the most I have ever spent on any train purchase. I'm finally at a point in my life where I'm not paying for braces, trumpets, trombones, college tuitions, cars, weddings, etc. so I do feel like I can spend money on toy's and I'm probably the luckiest husband in the world as my wife actually encourages me to buy it if I like it. She also knows that money came hard and I would never go overboard. One of our very favorite sets is the MTH John Deere set that I gave her two Christmases ago, she was a farm girl and she was excited to finally have her own electric train. You should see her friends reactions when she tells them about it, it's hilarious. Also in the box car was a very nice pair of diamond ear rings!

Bottom line: high end is in the eye of the beholder.

Jon

[3railguy]

Enjoy what suits your tastes and budget. There is a huge variety of different locomotives in different styles, sizes, and level of detail for just about every budget. It's a matter of finding a locomotive that suits your tastes and budget.. The $1,000 plus scale steam locomotives with lots of detail appeal to ones who have large layouts and a large budget. They enjoy running and displaying them and do not have a lot of concern about the resale value.

[csxt30]

Well, I built this layout with 72inch radius curves, with the idea of getting the high dollar stuff again, but with having to buy everything again, now I am staying in the below 300 dollar range. I think a real high dollar item for me at next income tax return time will be a mallet mabe for 6 hundred or less, used in good condition, being as I still need so much more of the other stuff. But I would like to mention if getting anything real expensive, they should be run a little slower & maybe less to keep from having to have them sent off & repaired so much. Thanks, John

[FJ and G]

another thing one must question, getting back to the original question, is, how much motive power does one need?

it obviously is an individual decision.

as for me, I'd be happy with a good collection of inexpensive rolling stock and about 2-3 locomotives. In fact, that's what I ran for several years until I started getting greedy and now have about 9 steeds.

You can get a couple of good diesels from Williams for $200 or $300 total and a low-end die-cast steam locomotive from Lionel for less than $200. That, to me at least, will be more than enough to give you a lifetime of pleasure.

Thinking back to when I was a kid, I had one Lionel Scout and a Marx steam locomotive and was entertained for years with a simple oval of track on a dirt basement floor. Used to come home from school and go to the basement to watch the sparks fly on the steel tubular track and oil her up, gears and all, with 3 in 1. Man, those were the days.

[cnw1995]

David makes a good point - I'm amazed at how happy I was for years with an oval of track and a train set.

[jonadel]

Point well taken. I was VERY happy as a kid with my one Marx engine, destroying Lincoln Log houses! Evil Knievel had nothing on me[:D]

Jon

[Anonymous]

I could afford to buy $1,000+ O gauge locomotives if I wanted them, but I've yet to see a $1,000+ O gauge locomotive that I thought was worth anywhere near that price.

Yes, there are some gorgeous locomotives out there--big suckers, too--but they just don't appeal to me in terms of the kind of model railroading I most like to do, and the relatively limited space I have available. I certainly won't knock those who do purchase the high-end stuff, but I'm perfectly content with the less costly offerings in O gauge these days, and am really delighted with a lot of the smaller stuff like the Lionel Dockside, MTH Dockside, K-Line Plymouth, RMT BEEP, K-Line Porter, and that sort of thing. Really nice small locomotives that look good and perform well on even a small layout. I also liked the "Baby Lionels" and MTH "Bantams" that were being offered at one point, although it appears that both firms may have backed-off a bit on those lines.

The manufacturers are making what they feel most folks want, and they will charge whatever they feel those folks are willing to spend. Traditionally, I guess it can be said that many O gaugers are less "budget minded" than a lot of folks operating in the other scales. There are exceptions, of course, but by and large it seems that a good many O gaugers have no reluctance to spending $1,000 or more for a new locomotive--even if it's a model that doesn't fit with their modeling theme (if they even have a theme).

My personal feeling is that this who situation is starting to change, though, and that increasing numbers of hobbyists are starting to rethink the way they have been spending with wild abandon in recent years. I believe that even the manufacturers are finally starting to realize that the glory days of big spending are probably behind us, and that many in the hobby are beginning to question their needs, their interests, and their spending habits.

[FJ and G]

OK, so this thread is still generating a lot of interest. A point or 2 more. My gut feeling is that nostalgia (gotta have it), is driving my generation of baby boomers--actually more like people born at the start of the baby boom and in the 30s and 40s. By now, I'm thinking that many of these boomers have acquired a good sized fleet and by now their wives are saying "enough" and these boomers had best get to work on a layout! That is their next goal, not buying trains.

I'm a mid-baby boomer, more of a toy train anomoly (sp?), born in 57 and grew up mostly with (boring) hot wheel and road race type friends. Of course all of us had cool spider bikes with scratchbuilt choppers, sissy bars and fat boy tires called "slicks" or "knobbys" which could lay a good patch of rubber and do a mean wheely, if you co-generation people know what I mean.

Oh, and the flashy banana seat, almost forgot that.

Now you older folks are in high heaven with your toy trains that you didn't have as a kid. Now me, I was the rare exception who had some Lionel trains that I acquired myself thru backbreaking snow shoveling. I probably have less nostalgia that you elders and tend to like the toy trains for their heft and great operating characteristics that we've all come to love so well.

OK, the skinny. Looks like I may be going to Taiwan soon to meet a charming Chinese gal. She knows I'm into beagles and toy trains and that's something she'll have to live with. I will soon be starting some Chinese language lessons (she's an English lit major). I have visited Taiwan on occasion, getting around speaking Japanese to the adults, most of whom could speak it. But that was in the early 80s.

[Anonymous]

I AM HAPPY BECAUSE I'M GETTING A K-LINE 4-6-6T LOCOMOTIVE FOR CHRISTMAS,THE PHILADELPHIA &READING ONE.THE 4-6-6T IS AWSOME FOR ABOUT $450.00 IT IS REASONABLE WHEN I'M ONLY ABOUT 13 AND I'VE BEEN IN THE HOBBY OF TRAINS FOR AS LONG AS I'VE SEEN THEM.K-LINE HAS GONE ON THE SCALE SIDE AND TURNS UP WITH ODDBALL LOCOMOTIVES.LIONEL HAS BEEN DOING GOOD FOR 2 YEARS ON THE SCALE TRAINS AND MTH IS DOING GREAT THIS YEAR I REWARD BOTH LIONEL,MTH & K-LINE FOR THEIR FAMILY APPROVED TRAINS.THE REWARD IS AN "A" CLASS REWARD THE 4-6-6 IS STILL :).

[3railguy]

QUOTE: My personal feeling is that this who situation is starting to change, though, and that increasing numbers of hobbyists are starting to rethink the way they have been spending with wild abandon in recent years. I believe that even the manufacturers are finally starting to realize that the glory days of big spending are probably behind us, and that many in the hobby are beginning to question their needs, their interests, and their spending habits.

You could very well be right but the same was said around 1992 when the market became glutted with Lionel, Williams, and Weaver big ticket imported steam engines. These manufacturers backed off. But for a short time.The market became less saturated and the demand increased. MTH was formed and began importing big ticket steam engines. Lionel soon followed and the cycle pretty much repeated itself.

I would hesitate to label one who buys big ticket steam engines a big spender. Many of these people get more satisfaction out of one $1,200 engine verses four $300 engines. A wise spender would be a better choice of words if this is the case. $1,200 is $1,200 whether it be for one engine or four.

[jonadel]

I would have to agree with John L., I'm certainly not a big spender but yet when the time comes that I have the capability to run O54 and O72 I will buy a Climax and a Shay. Those two steamers are really the only things on my wish list for the future. I am fairly selective on what I buy and those two engines would be the most expensive items I would ever buy, unless................

Jon