Lionel 2343 AA Exc condition or 2356 Powered A Ex+ - Which one?

[FEClionel]

Ok I came across a set of very nice 1950 2343's in Excellent condition for $350 and I also came across a low mieage 2356 Powered A unit for $245. Which would you pick? I love the 2356 but will it be hard to find a matching A to go with it. I know I would be missing the horn but I would not use it anyway. What do you all think?

[philo426]

While I agree that the 2356 Southern is a pretty engine getting an original dummy A unit would present a challenge.Your other option is to get a postwar or MPC dummy A unit and have it custom-painted which could get expensive if you cannot do the work yourself.Plus the new unit would look "new"while the original would look aged.I think thsat the 2343 Santa-Fe units are your best bet!Can't lose with a postwar icon!

[3railguy]

Welcome to the world of patience and upgrading. If it were me, i would definately go with the Southern A because I have patience. $250 for an origional Southern powered A in excellent plus condition is a bargain and leaves a lot of room for a dummy A. If you look hard, you should be able to find a Southern AA set with a battery damaged powered A and good dummy A for a cheap price and swap powered A's. You can dump or canibalize the battery damaged powered A for parts. My feelings are orphan dummy A's may take a lot of time and patience but are easier to find than orphan powered A's because of battery damage. You may come across a dummy B unit so you can make an AB set. If you attend large train meets such as York, Cal Stewart, or Weaton, finding a Southern dummy A will be easier. orphans like this show up at these meets frequently. Keep an eye on ebay and other on line sources too or place a wanted add in the TCA interchange. Once completed, you'll have an $800 AA set.

$350 for the 2343's in exc condition is a good price too. but they are much more common than southerns. They are the most favored of the SF F3's because of the screened vents. $350 is a little less than the repros by lionel and MTH. If you already have 2353's or 2383's and are looking to upgrade, I would still go with the Southerns because 2343's show up much more often than the Southerns.

If you are concerned about resale value, I think the bottom has fallen out of postwar as much as it ever will and the postwar engines should hold their value better than the repros. Even with all the electronics. This is because the electronics are likely to be dated soon.

[daan]

If you don't have postwar F3's, I would go for the 2343. But I love the bright red colours and the heavy horizontal motors. They run great and not too fast. I don't know about the 2356 about which type of motors is built in it. I don't have the vertical motor F3's, but they have a very different driving then the older F3's with horizontal motors. Both engines will give tremendous amount of driving pleasure..

[3railguy]

The 2356's have horizontal motors similar to the 2343's with some minor changes Lionel installed nylon idler gears as an attempt to quiet the drive down. The horizontal drives are noisy but lower geared than the later vertical drives which are quieter and smoother. I like the sound of the horizontal drive motors and they smell better when they are hot.

[3railguy]

OOOOPS!!!! Something occured to me. Not only did Lionel make minor changes to the horizontal motors with the 2350 series F3's, they moved the horn to the dummy. This may explain why the powered unit you are looking at was orphaned - DUHHHHHH! The dummys suffered battery damage. Your search may be that much more difficult.

[Anonymous]

I have four Lionel SRR AAs stored somewhere up at our mountain cottage. I traded for the engines years ago[one pair in NYC in 1960 and one pair in Roanoke around 1963-64] when I was in HO. I test ran them on a friend's track and then placed them on a shelf . I really don't know if they are authenic, reproductions,junk or what.?

When I first started carpet running O-gauge around 1982, I ran the engines some and recall they sounded and smelled somewhat like our old International Corn Binder at the farm.
I will check them out when I get to the mountains today.

[FEClionel]

Ok guys another curve ball the 2343's have 2 plain cardboard boxes that owner claims as originals - I thought that AA had one cardboard and one orange/colored box.???? Also found a set of very good condition 2355's with most of front decals missing but no other major issues - bright silver and low mileage for $500 even. I'm not apposed to spending alittle more for these if you think thats a fair deal.

[3railguy]

I think you are right about the boxes. I have a set of 2344 NYC's with an orange and plain box. One says 2344P and the other 2344T. If the 2343's are all origional, then they are a good deal.

$500 for VG WP's with missing nose decals may be a fair price to some but nothing to get excited about. I wouldn't touch them with a 10 ft pole for that. You can get repro nose decals but if you ever plan on upgrading, it will take till h*** freezes over to sell them. Altered postwar isn't considered collectible and only worth it's operating fun. People would rather go for a Williams golden memory for much less. Even though it will be tough to get a dummy A for the Southern and it will likely cost more than the powered A, I would spring $250 in a heartbeat for the powered A before even considering the WP's from what you describe.

[FEClionel]

yeah the price for the 2355's are alittle high and alittle more than I woulde like to spend. Although how often do these come up for same in low mileage condition. I have found an original set of decals so thats really not the issue. Also one I would find a 2356 to match the powered A it would probably cost about $250 plus for a dummy A or B. So I would end up spending the same amount - for that I think the 2355's are a better deal. what do you think???

[3railguy]

2355's in excellent condition are worth more than the 2356's in excellent condition but the 2355's you are looking at are far from excellent in my opinion. Complete origional decals are tough to find on 2355's because they flaked off easily. That is why full excellents command such a high price. You are essentially paying for full origional decals. They add a substancial premium if fully enact and can more than double the value compared to being totally gone. I think it boils down to your preferences. New decals help but altered postwar to me is like a thorn unless I get it dirt cheap for what it's worth in parts. I prefer my stuff all origional and will wait for years to get it that way if I have to. From my own experience, that is the attitude the majority of collectors share and there just isn't any real collector value. It's looked upon as junk postwar and the damage is irreversible. If I were skeptical about finding a 2356 dummy without battery damage, I would then turn to the 2343's which I think are an excellent deal at that price if they truely are excellent. If I already had 2353 or 2383's, I would upgrade with the 2343's and sell the other. If I had trouble with that, I would hang on to my money and continue saving until something else comes along. $500 will buy other postwar icons such as a pristine NH rectifier.

[Anonymous]

I found one set of my Lionel Southern AA F-3s---both the powered and dummy have the same road number--: 2356. Both units have a place for a horizontal "D" flashlight battery to power the horn. Don't know if this set is the "real McCoy" or not? The cab or shells appear to have a lot less use than the running gear.

The model number underneath the fuel tank on the powered A is 2333-20. I haven't found a manual or boxes and have no idea what the model number signifies.

I fired up an old ZW, coupled and placed the units upside down in an engine cradle and applied power with alligator clip pigtails. The engine groaned loudly and produced a substantial arc up front toward the coupler. I shut down and decided I would get soneone who knew what they were doing to take a look.

Any advice will be appreciated.

[3railguy]

Leonard, the arc could be coming from a loose wire to the headlight that is shorting on the frame. Another thing. They do not run well upside down because the mechanical reverse plunger falls back in it's winding letting the pawl rotate from vibration. It's common for postwar F3's that have been stored for years to cease up too. The grease Lionel used in the 50's dried up and hardened over the years causing the motor to cease up. Your units need to be dissasembled and the mechanical parts soaked and scrubbed with solvent to remove the old grease and oil and be relubed. The reverse unit could use a blast of plastic compatible tuner cleaner. Once relubed, they run much quieter.

From what you described, it's most likely your Southerns are authentic. Postwar Lionel wasn't really considered collectible in the early 60's so there wasn't any counterfeiting then. Counteiting started in the early 70's or so. The powered unit and dummy unit frames are identical castings and one has the hole for the battery plugged. In your case, it should be the powered unit. They are stamped 2333-20 because 2333 was the first Lionel F3 and the frames went basically unchanged. The shells are identical and both stamped 2356.

If the shells aren't scratched and the nose herald decals are complete, you have some prize postwar. Mountain air was good for them due to lack of humidity. If you traded HO for them, you made out very well. The mechanicals need a good cleaning and relubing along with some electrical joints that may need to be re-soldered. If the shells are dusty, they could use a wash with Dawn detergent. Just be careful around the rubber stamped lettering and decal. Both flake off easily.

[Anonymous]

Thanks very much for the information and advice John. Chuck Anderson, the old line Lionel guy who owned and ran "Inside Track" here in Greensboro was a Service Station and first class repairman. He has passed on and I am unsure about the capability of other dealers in the area. I may send it off to Lionel or better yet, someone who specializes in postwar Lionel repair.

The pad printing and nose herald are in very good shape. I found a little rust on one pickup roller cradle but otherwise no real glitches.

Thanks again for the help.

[Anonymous]

FEClionel
My son informed me that he does not want the 2333-20 AA Lionel F-3 set . I will consider selling it to you if you are still interested. But you need to E-mail me an offer and include an return E-mail adress I can respond to-----I cannot get recognition of your AOL adress.
Thanks

[FEClionel]

Leonard,
I sent you an email! look forward to your responce!
-Geoff

[okiechoochoo]

FEClionel,
Looks like someone won the 2355s you must have been looking at on eBay for $500.
Guess that eliminates that option.

[FEClionel]

Yes I did - but oh well the search continues - maybe you have other F3's availible?

I did however get the 2356 even if I can't find a mate for it - it will look great with a set of 2500 passenger cars behind it.

Still looking for my favorite F3's of all - 2345/55's...the hunt continues but, I gotta wrap it up before the wedding.

-Geoff

[okiechoochoo]

Still looking for my favorite F3's of all - 2345/55's...the hunt continues but, I gotta wrap it up before the wedding.

-Geoff

[FEClionel]

haha no way! Actually gotta close on the house - more room for trains!!!

[okiechoochoo]

You just missed the nicest set of 2355 WP I have seen in years. They were on ebay, all original, complete nose decals, not replacements and bright silver. Came with a nice master carton. A few years ago these would have brought around $3000 or more. They sold on eBay for $1625. Just shows prices are falling. Keep looking you will find some.

[railfanespee4449]

How about a repainted F-3 Western Pacific a for $300 (no horn in it. ex Southern?)

[okiechoochoo]

Repaint, blah, that becomes nothing but junk for parts. Worth maybe, 150

[Anonymous]

What about the Williams Golden Memories F3's? They look and run great! Here's the website: www.williamstrains.com

[Anonymous]

The recent (Sept) issue of CTT has an interesting and informative article written by Len Carparelli on Lionel F-3s----he covers the New York Central, Western Pacific and Southern versions.