New to hobby - not sure what to get

[Anonymous]

Hello, I'm planning on getting my first train soon and am not sure which gauge to go with. I love the G scale just because of how great they look up close but they are just too big and too expensive for what I want right now. I had a Lionel Train growing up (probably O) and my father had a fleet of HO trains. I have none now and I want to create something that I can enjoy in my spare time. I have an area set aside large enough for a sheet of plywood (approx 4x8'). I would like to have the ability to run 2 trains at once if I choose. I'm spending some time on the internet learning what I can but was hoping I could get a few opinions on which gauge/scale would work well with my desires and restrictions. If anyone would like to share their opinion please give me some pros and cons of your choice. Thank you for any help.
Note - I posted the same message in the MRR forum to get some different feedback.

[Anonymous]

Have you considered N scale? I say that simply because you say you have a space of approximately 4x8 available, and you want to be able to operate two or more trains simultaneously. That leaves out Large Scale (G gauge) trains for sure. There's very little that you can do with Large Scale in a 4x8 area, aside from a small oval and perhaps a short siding or two.

It does not necessarily leave out O gauge (or, more realistically, the somewhat smaller O27), or even S scale (1:64), but that won't leave you a whole lot of room for scenery or accessories, especially if you want to keep to that two-train option. You can, indeed, configure a 4x8 for two train operation in O/O27, but they won't be big trains, and they won't be long trains.

Ditto for HO scale (1:87), to a certain extent, because HO trackwork pretty much requires the same amount of space as O in a lot of cases--the minimum curves available are 15" radius (30" diameter) compared to the 27" (or so) diameter required for O27 and the 31" (or so) diameter required for O31 (O gauge). In HO, you will, however have more space available for scenery and accessories on that same-size 4x8 pike.

In N scale (1:160), you'll have space for a good amount of railroading and for a good amount of scenery and other items, and will be able to operate fairly long trains, plus have a good amount of space left over for sidings, yards, and other such additional trackwork. The trains themselves are considerably smaller, of course, so that may not be a tradeoff you're willing to make.

And, of course, in Z scale (1:220)--the smallest of the commercially available scales--you could have a very large empire in that same space, with very long trains and some very spectaular scenic features.

So it pretty much depends on how much railroading you want to fit into the space that's available to you. There are plenty of resources available, both on the Internet and in printedf form, to show you what can and cannot be accomplished in the "standard" 4x8 space. You're doing the right thing by inquiring on forums like this oner, but do keep in mind that most of the folks here are O and S gauge enthusiasts. They'll likely try to entice you to join there ranks, which is only natural.

The bottom line is that everyone has space available for a model railroad. What they can realistically do with their railroad largely depends on the amount of space they have available; the scale they want to model in, for whatever reason; what they want their railroad to be; and, to some extent, their hobby budget.

In any case, welcome to what is truly the greatest and most diverse hobby of all! No matter what scale you end up going with, you'll find that you have many hours of enjoyment and relaxation ahead of you.

[daan]

May be you could consider 0 gauge narrow gauge railways, they aquire less space then 0, the locomotives are bigger then h0 and it has more place for scenery as with 0.
In reality those lines don't run huge trains, so a small porter engine with a few cars is prototypical in this case too. You can make an island railway with a harbour and a coalmine for example to create a need for transportation and you can use tight curves.
In 0 there are possibilities as well. You'll need to let go the prototypicall length of trains, and settle with 027 or 031 (last one leaves more possibilities for engines). In cost a 0 gauge railway doesn't need to be more expensive then a h0 or N gauge railway. Look on ebay to get the nice engines for not too much money (about 60-70 dollars for a classic postwar 2026 or something).
On your 4x8 you can make a layout which should be able to handle 2 trains at once, but it will be filled with tracks and not with landscaping.
You could also think about a harbour railroad in 0 gauge, with small switcher engines and one oval around it on a higher level, giving a continuous running train and one for switching.
Personnaly I would not go for the small scale's like N or even Z, since their driving capabilities are very bad compared to 0. I've had both the smaller scale's and railcleaning is the major business you're doing instead of running trains.
It's up to you what you like to see, a nice long train with a double F3 in front running on high speed across a landscape, or a nice old smoke puffing 0 gauge steamer on a small layout with a short train switching in on a harbour track.

to be short; in 0 gauge the train itself with all it's details is important, and with N or Z the train is part of a scenic showcase only as an add-on.

[spankybird]

HI Saggymojo,

Welcome to the CTT forum


You have already received much good advice.

I would like to point out that you shouldn’t limit your layout to 4 x 8 sheet of plywood, but rather, to the space that you have available to dedicate your layout to. If you have 5’ x 8’ you could do a layout like this, which can run two trains



click on pic to enlarge it.

Also be sure to visit this site
http://www.thortrains.net

good luck
tom

[FJ and G]

The only thing to add to Allan's advice is to consider an around-the wall layout.

For instance, if your room is, say, 20X20 and you want a 4X8 island with some chairs, you could make better use of the space with an around the walls shelf that's about 2 ft wide. That would still leave you with a lot of open space; in fact, better utilization of space than the island, and at that point you really could consider O, double-track with some spurs and sidings to boot.

You could even get elaborate and make several layers of around the wall runs, connected by a ramp in the back, or, make each independent and run an HO and N scale. Stop by home depot and look at their metal shelvings.

You can start out small with just one shelf and then later plan more. Their shelving goes out to 2 feet and are placed on upright steel pieces that screw into the wall studs thru the drywall (you can find the studs w/a stud detector).

You would need a lift-out or lift up/down section at the door, which is easy to make or else a duckunder, which I advise against.

Throw some more ideas out here and we can brainstorm together for ya

[Anonymous]

David makes a good point. Given the choice, I would much rather have a shelf-type around-the-room layout than have everything crammed onto a 4x8 sheet of plywood. Must easier to work with; more fun to watch the longer runs (in any scale); and affords the possibility of operating longer trains. You also can do a great deal with scenery and accessories, depending on the depth of your shelves (which, by the way, does not have to be uniform on all sides of the room). Besides that, with proper planning you can put the area beneath the shelves to good use for storage, placing a stereo or TV set, adding bookcases, and the like.

[IronHoarse]

Welcome!!
I too am new to the hobby and like you I started out asking questions on this forum. I gathered information for about 6 months before I bought anything. It is a very good place to learn and the people here are great. I was going to have a 4 x 8 layout too. It ended up being 4 X 17 and O gauge with Lionel trains. Whatever you choose just be sure to have fun.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller
You can, indeed, configure a 4x8 for two train operation in O/O27, but they won't be big trains, and they won't be long trains.

I will not discount the N or Z trains until I can see them in person and hold them in my hands. However, I already think they will be too small for what I want at this time. As far as big, long trains I'll settle for an engine with 4-5 cars and a caboose (times 2). I just think the 2nd train will really add something interesting to the scene.

QUOTE: but do keep in mind that most of the folks here are O and S gauge enthusiasts. They'll likely try to entice you to join there ranks, which is only natural.

I noticed that in another newbie's post which is why I also posted on the Model Railroads forum.[:)]

QUOTE: The bottom line is that everyone has space available for a model railroad. What they can realistically do with their railroad largely depends on the amount of space they have available; the scale they want to model in, for whatever reason; what they want their railroad to be; and, to some extent, their hobby budget.

I'll answer a few people's comments on this one. I am putting this in my garage, the only place I can do it in my house. I have no basement, attic or extra living space. My wife told me the garage was mine so here I go. I said I want to do 1 sheet of plywood, but I'm flexible if it will make a big difference. I could do an "L" shape, so a 4' x 8' with a 3' x 3' side added to it. Of course that will mean I have to buy a table saw too (which I really want, so it's a good excuse). The shelving idea is not my favorite for the space and one of my "walls" is actually the garage door.

QUOTE: If you have 5’ x 8’ you could do a layout like this, which can run two trains

I'm sure I could fit another foot into the layout. Of course, that means a little more woodworking but I could do it. I see what you guys mean about not much scenery but I like what you did in your example. I really like the old-fashioned McDonald's. I may look online for one of those.

Thanks for the ideas, keep them coming.

[Anonymous]

Daan, I saw a topic where you posted an in-progress picture of your layout. It looked very nice. How's that coming?

In your post you recommend a switcher engine. I've seen that term used here but I don't know the difference between this and a regular engine.

[csxt30]

I just saw that Mcdonalds for 39.95 at I think Charles Ro, but maybe it was Trainworld or even another. I forgot now, but will check. Thanks, John Just checked, & it is Trainworld that has it for 39.99 That is the older one & they also show a newer one.

[Anonymous]

I'd go with HO I have a 4x8 (with more added) and i've gotten away with it. You could get two seperate loops for two different trains. N and Z scale well as long***you like the size and the eyestrain. Anyway go with whatever you want but HO is my vote

[Anonymous]

Tom, is that O or O27 you're running in the picture?

[spankybird]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Shaggymojo

Tom, is that O or O27 you're running in the picture?

It's O27 track with 027 on the inside and 042 on the outside loop. All Switches are 027 k-line low profile. (much better than Lionel)

I had the lumber yard cut the 4 x 8 sheets to 4 x 5 (2 required) and then I only had to make my framing (2" x 4").


BTW you can see more of this layout on my web page. Just click on the icon below. It is the circus layout. [:D]

tom

[lionelsoni]

I posted this recently on a topic "New to the hobby" which seems to have disappeared, except when I search for it:

"If you look at the sharpest curves used in the various scales, you will notice that they are all about the same, from N right up to O, around 1 foot radius. Of course they are all too sharp to be realistic; and O is the worst at that. But this means that you can build pretty much the same layout in any scale, if you want. Furthermore, there is a tradition in O-gauge toy trains of reducing the size of some models, particularly in the length dimension, to make the sharp curves practical. So, even though HO scale is 45 percent smaller than O, a typical O train might be not much longer than an HO train with the same number of cars and would fit almost as well in the same layout design."

[daan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Shaggymojo

Daan, I saw a topic where you posted an in-progress picture of your layout. It looked very nice. How's that coming?

In your post you recommend a switcher engine. I've seen that term used here but I don't know the difference between this and a regular engine.

Well, the layout is online too, on my website (click the "web" icon on the bottom of replies I made or go to http://communities.zeelandnet.nl/data/lionel )
I made a flat table fitting to the layout plan and after laying out the tracks I tried to find space for mountains etc. It's very simple; you only need some leftovers from woodplating or so and some old rustproof fencework. On that you can drape old bedsheets soaked in plaster (cut it to 1x1ft size) and finish it off with plaster.
I work on a very limited budget (just because I like to find out cheap ways to do something, leaves more money for trains[:D]).

A switcher engine is a locomotive dedicated to shunt cars into new formations or deliver single cars to factory's. In America they are usually not equipped with road numberplates in front (the lighted number). K-line makes a very nice small switcher engine for just over 100 dollars and Lionel has a few nice steam and diesel engines too. (0-6-0 steam engine for $99 is the schoolexample of a nice switcher).

Switchers are not suited for long trains and long distances, so they are ideal for the smaller layout. In Holland switcher engines are mostly worn out mainline engines and even the swiss crocodile has been used as a switches engine (in switserland) in the last day's of it's life. You can use every kind of engine if you have some fantasy..

[Anonymous]

Shag:
I have tried N, HO, and O. You may be able to fit more in with the smaller scales, but they are more delicate and difficult to work with. If you're trying to do serious scale modeling in small spaces, they have the advantage. But O gauge works great on a 4x8, if you want to run fun stuff with all the features. Just don't plan to run big expensive locomotives.... you will be limited to 027 to 042 track. I use a 4x8 with an inner 027 loop and outer 042 loop. I love it! I run all the less expensive 027 "Traditional" size equipment with operating cars and accessories. Don't let anyone discourage you from doing that.... it's simple and easy, and loads of fun!

[Anonymous]

As Santafekent notes, if you do decide to go with O gauge, you definitely should consider the somewhat smaller O27 locomotives and rolling stock 'cause they'll just look a whole lot better on a small pike. My personal recommendations for motive power would be the Lionel 0-6-0 Dockside, the K-Line Plymouth diesel, the soon-to-be available K-Line Porter steam locomotive, the MTH 0-4-0 Dockside, and perhaps even the RMT "BEEP" locomotive. None of the locomotives I've named cost over $100, and they are all great for someone just starting out, or for the more experienced hobbyist. A Lionel, MTH, or Williams NW or SW switcher would also be fine, although they are a bit larger than the aforementioned locomotives. And there is a ton of "traditional size" rolling stock out there, so you'll pretty much be able to find anything you might want.

You might also want to give some consideration to On30--a scale popularized by Bachmann (although other manufacturers also offer On30 nowadays). These are O scale locomotives and rolling stock operating on HO track. You can still manage to get two loops of track with these trains--one with 15'-radius curves and another with 18" radius curves. The Bachmann On30 items are beautifully made; tthey run smoothly and quietly; and they are very affordable. They are all based on smaller narrow gauge prototypes, so they look especially good on a small layout. And, you can use any of the large assortment of regular O gauge accessories with these trains since they are, indeed, O scale. Check the Bachmann web site to see what is offered.

[Anonymous]

I stopped by my local train shop and unfortunately 95% of his inventory was G scale. He had 1 HO set, the Bachmann Sante Fe Super Chief, which looked nice but maybe a little too small for my taste. He did have 3 or 4 of the Bachmann On30 you just mentioned and I liked the look and size of those. They were all around $150 for an engine, 3-4 cars and some track which seemed reasonable to me. The concern I have right now is when I look on the internet, there seems to be few products available. Is this a growing field or will I be limited when I choose to buy another engine? If so I may be leaning towards the O27 gauge.

[daan]

Shaggy, I don't think that you should limit yourself to choises which are most available. In Europe 0 gauge is almost not for sale, and certainly not in hobbyshops. I buy via ebay or in online shops, mostly in America, and let them sent over.
I'm sure 0sn30 is also mostly available through internet shops, but it requires more scratchbuilding and as far as I know they don't have working assesoires.

[Anonymous]

On30 continues to grow in popularity--one of the fastest growing scales in fact, in this country. Bachmann's On30 products are readily available, and at far better prices than what you saw in that hobby shop. Get a copy of a current issue of "Model Railroader" magazine and check the Trainworld ad--you'll see lots on On30 advertised there, and at very good prices. Ditto for ads from St. Aubin Station and a number of others.

I have had no problem locating On30 items, and I really like everything I've bought to date, including Bachmann's Shay, Climax, 2-6-0s, gas-mechanical switchers, Porters, and trolleys. I also have several Broadway Limited steamers, and am awaiting Accucraft's release of a couple of diesel switchers. I was operating my On30 on Atlas HO sectional track, but recently bought a couple of boxes of Peco On30 flex-track and will ultimately be using that for my On30 modeling (has more realistic ties, more accurately representing what was seen on narrow gauge railroads).

I'm not trying to "sell" you on On30, but it is a great option because it gives you small O scale equipment that you can operate on readily available HO track, while still making use of the wide variety of O scale accessories that are currently available, such as structures from Lionel, MTH, K-Line, and a number of others.

Very neat stuff, if you have any interest in narrow gauge railroading (long one of my personal favorites, along with trolley operations)!

[FJ and G]

Quote: "The concern I have right now is when I look on the internet, there seems to be few products available. Is this a growing field or will I be limited when I choose to buy another engine? If so I may be leaning towards the O27 gauge."

-------
Pick up a copy of CTT or OGR from the bookstore (usually in the crafts section or men's interests section of your nearest large bookstore). There are countless ads for O scale trains. Model Railroader has ads for On3 and On2 1/2 , which are the narrow gauge. To answer, YES, this is a growing field, esp. in the wide selection available. You'll also find that prices are even better than at your hobby shop, which you say has G and HO only.

[Anonymous]

Ok, so I won't make any rash decisions. I'll do some more research first because I did like the size of the On30. Allan, you mentioned ads from St. Aubin Station which is funny because the train shop I went to is called that. I wonder if that is just a coincidence or if the guy sells mail-order too.

[Anonymous]

Well, there's only on St. Aubin Station that I know of--two actually, but under the same operation: one in Illinois (which is where I order from), and one in Las Vegas. I assume you visited the Las Vegas store. I'm not sure what they have in stock in the Las Vegas location, but St. Aubin runs ads for On30 in "Model Railroader" and "Garden Railways," and they often enough have separate ads in those publications for their On30 stock. I buy from them, Trainworld, and Star Hobby (in Maryland). Between those three dealers, I can pretty much get whatever I want, and at very reasonable prices. Good service from all three, as well, at least in my experience.

Visit St. Aubin's web site and see if that's the place you visited (I'm almost sure it is). Perhaps their in-store prices are higher than their mail order prices--I don't really know. But I've found their mail order pricing to be very attractive.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it's the same place. In the store it's 90% Garden scale. I can't find their online pricing for the On30 products, even though I can for other Bachmanns. But Trainworld's online prices are only slightly less then St. Aubin's retail store was. So if that's the way I decide to go, I'll probably drive to the store since I'm not saving anything. I'll pick up a magazine though because I want to see the ad they run.

[Jumijo]

Shaggy,

If space is limited in the house, consider a garden layout. That way, you still have the garage for vehicles, and benefit from the fact that you get outside when the weather is nice. I've seen great O guage garden layouts as well as G, so either size would work. Something to think about. At some point, I'd like to have an outdoor loop.

I'm new to the hobby as well. I'm building an L-shaped layout in our basement from one 4x8 and one 4x6 sheet of plywood.

Jim

[Anonymous]

An outdoor track is not an option in my current house. It's something I want eventually but until I can get a bigger yard and section it off, our dogs won't react kindly to some foreign looking object tooting in their back yard. Not to mention the threat of derailments due to "little surprises" left on tracks.

[FJ and G]

Jim,

Exactly my thoughts. I'm now debating whether to do outdoor O or G. There are pros and cons.

O pros:
I have the trains already (can bring the locomotives indoors when not running).

You can get more railroading in O

Atlas makes outdoor track

G pros

You can run the trains in any weather

The trains are bigger (hey, that's something us O toy train people can relate to)

[FJ and G]

oh, couple more pros for G worth considering: you can go battery remote or even live steam and you can build some humongous structures.

I'm a bit inclined as I think this over to convert over to G and just buy a few pieces and maybe 2 locomotives. I don't need tons of trains to be satisfied.

Naturally, I'm not abandoning Toy Trains; as I run them every day in my office and may do another indoor layout. Anyway, that's where my thoughts are at this moment.

[Jumijo]

Dave,

Even if I were to go with G in my yard, I'd still bring the trains in when not in use. It has little to do with the weather. And K-Line offers a battery remote set in O (with plastic track) - Pennsylvania or Southern Pacific diesel freight sets and a Coca Cola steamer set w/ sound for only $39.95 (the Coke set comes with figures and a station). An affordable way to find out if outdoor railroading is for you.

We have a fairly large, level area of our yard that is mainly grass and patio at this time. Plans are to landscape the perimeter with mulch, shrubs and flowers. I'm thinking a nice little outdoor railroad would be the perfect addition to the new flora.

Jim

[cnw1995]

St Aubin's station is just down the road from me (the Illinois store - it's actually a big nursery with acres of land - it has primarily G scale everything and a few On30 sets. I'm impressed with some of their prices too. I echo Jim's suggestion, I got the K-Line battery powered set - and have run it outside -the track is a large oval - plastic (won't rust).