O GAUGE JOHN BULL

[Anonymous]

wHO WANTS LIONEL TO MAKE THE JOHN BULL 0-4-0 WITH RAILSOUNDS FOR $210.00.I DO[:)]

[Anonymous]

Sure. Sounds interesting. I'd get one at that price. Very early steam seems really interesting to me. The 1950's stuff everyone seems to like is just as alien to someone born in the 70's.

There was a two part article on how to make one yourself using a power truck from a GP9 in the tender in one of the magazines a few years ago. Will see if I can find it.

[Brutus]

I'll take one and a Dewitt-Clinton!

[Anonymous]

Won't happen, I'm afraid. Just way too small a market for very early steam power.

However, a layout buit to that theme surely would be distinctive. My ex built one in HO, using Bachmann's models of the John Bull, DeWitt Clinton, etc., and it was a beautiful and very unique layout. Of course, she also used kit-built and kit-bashed period structures, etc. on that layout, which greatly enhanced the effect.

[Anonymous]

I would rather see MTH make it.

[Anonymous]

Well, if anyone was going to make it, it likely would be MTH or K-Line. I can't imagine that any of the others would be willing to venture into those untested (in O gauge) waters.

[daan]

If lloking for early dteam power, best look on english (britain) sites of 0 gauge. In GB there are even lots of building kits for the crampton locomotives (very early steampower, beautifull machines!)
http://www.mylargescale.com/articles/masterclass/cphuntington/bkgrnd/CPH_CH1B_07.asp
Not model's but this is an example page of the crampton locomotives in America.

[Anonymous]

Wow Daan you found some weird old stuff. I love that picture of the "Fontaine" on the page you have marked.

The John Bull was on the early end of this early steam era it is more in league with the Lafayette design on that web article if you went back a page. Now in O the closest to this engine age wise in somewhat mass market offerings is the General and that is how it appeared after it was modernized in the 1870's. The John Bull was to this version of the General as a 1924 Ford Model T is to a 1957 Chevy Bel Air.

MTH seems to be leading the field in diversifying early (pre WW2)era standard gauge model offerings in O scale. They are offering several types of "tie rod" cars and post civil war to early 20th century offerings. Reaching back a little further would be interesting. The Baltimore RR museum has an amazing collection of very early equipment that fits the bill. This museum is right around the corner from MTH HQ. The troubles the B&ORR muesum has had in the last couple years with the collapsed roof and an extended closure because of it serve to point out just how important their collection is and making more items like this would reenforce that idea as well as be an interesting new area to explore through modeling.

[eZAK]

I would buy one!

I would even consider building one.

[Anonymous]

I finally found the article on how to build a powered John Bull. The article is by Tony English and it appears in the February 1999 and April 1999(I think, can't find this one) or run 164 and 165 of O Gauge Railroading Magazine. It is a nice article on how to build a scale tender powered John Bull using a powered tender and a combination of simple hand made brass and stock parts. Power is from a disguised Lionel GP9 truck hidden in the tender.

It looks to be a pretty straight forward and realizable project. I am sure some of the techniques would go towards a model of the Dewitt Clinton, Lafayette, Stephenson's Rocket, Best Friend of Charleston,or what have you. Now if you could find some O scale stage coaches you could repaint them, put benches and handrails on top, put flanged wheels on them and have some passable Dewitt Clinton style coaches to go with them.

[daan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by emmaandy

Wow Daan you found some weird old stuff. I love that picture of the "Fontaine" on the page you have marked.

Those engines are genuine english speed machines in american dress-up. The original english and french machines like this reached a 100 miles+ before the turn of the 19th century. They where fast and lightweight, and most of all relyable.
The problem with these machines was that the track needed to be straight and well laid without sharp turns. That is the main reason why this crampton-type locomotives are not well known in the USA. In the US they where more interested in strong, but slower, locomotives which could handle the sharp curves and steep grades used in the time before the civil war. If you google search on crampton type locomotives you'll see that those machines are like a british sports car. Fast, small and very lightweight. They mostly have one big driving wheel, operate on high pressure steam with overheating and mostly have a small guiding wheel on the front and back.
Most american engines at that time operated on "wet" steam (not overheated) because it's much simpler and cheaper and doesn't require a lot of extra technics. The boilers on the crampton type engines needed to be very strong and therefore expensive, cylinders needed to be precise and with a thick cylinder wall, good sealings and a very precise rod fabrication to run smooth.
With the older american engines the seals could be made of greased rope if necessary,
the cylinders where cast instead of machined from solid formings etc and the driving rods could be made from thinner and cheaper steel. Those machines where easy to fix when they broke down and didn't need the amount of coal the crampton types used, so where more suitable for long distances in the desert..
I love the Crampton locomotives a lot. They are oddly shaped, very technical and advanced and where the sportscars of the 19th century...

[Anonymous]

How popular were these in Europe? I never seen one or even a picture. I do feel safe saying that most American modelers are pretty devoted in their knowedge to American protoypes. This interest for the most part is restricted to North American lines and it does not extend to other areas of railroad history from other parts of the globe.

It is interesting that European and Asian modelers seem to have a more "all inclusive" area of interest. Yourself being a good example. You are a European with interest in modeling American trains. In MR there has been a series of model articles recently by a European who seems to be better at capturing the look of the modern ex-urb America of strip malls, "Luxury" tract homes and access roads than any American modeler I've seen recently.

To take appeances in magazines as an example I've seen many more pictures of American based layouts in European and Japanese Model magazines than pictures of European based layouts in American ones.

I've never seen pictures of a Japanese based layout in an American model magazine. Maybe this happens in smaller scales (N and Z). Most Japaneze modelers seem to use smaller sizes for space reasons and I assume most models are offered in those sizes.

To get back to the topic. Did any Cramptons survive to today?

[TrainFreak409]

I wouldn't want to see Lionel make that. MTH, all the way, with ProtoSounds 2. That would be a superb model.

Mr. Purkey from Purkeys Toy Trains and I have talked about manufacturers producing models from that era. There is a market for that. There are quite a few people that would buy it, reasonally priced.

~[8]~ TrainFreak409 ~[8]~

[Anonymous]

This is certainly an interesting topic. I do agree with emmaandy that North American train enthusiasts are rather narrow-minded compared with their foreign counterparts when it comes to havng an interest in railways from other countries. That is not the case with me. I've always had an interest in trains from all over the world, not just local ones.

I've always liked the Cramptons. I like daan's comparison of them with a British sports car. They are very attractive machines, although the American one seems to be an ugly duckling compared to its classy European counterparts.

To answer your question, emmaandy, yes, a Crampton does survive. There is a 4-2-0 from 1852 at the National Railway Museum of France...and it's still operational! Of course, it is only steamed up for certain special occaisions. Here's a picture of it below.


Some interesting trivia on the Cramptons:
-For a time, the word "Crampton" entered the French language to mean "train".
-There were a total of 320 Cramptons built, the majority of which went to France.
-A Crampton was rebuilt with a special double-boiler and broke the land speed record in 1890, reaching 89.5MPH.

A far as models of early trains in O gauge go, Marklin made a very nice tinplate model of Der Adler 2-2-2 of 1835 (Germany's first steam locomotive) in 1935 to mark the centennial of the opening of Germany's first railway. It came complete with open and closed coaches and passsengers and crew to ride in it. Expect to pay big bucks for one of these! Also at this time, Bub made a much cheaper tinplate clockwork model of Der Adler, which is also highly collectabe and valuable, but not nearly as much as the Marklin.

It would be interesting for come of the current American O gauge manufacturers to make models of early engines like the John Bull or DeWitt Clinton. If there's a market for engines like the General, there ought to eb some people interested in these.

[tmcc man]

i would most def buy one even though it is not my favorite era

[Anonymous]

I just found a model of the Stephenson Rocket of 1829 at a hobby shop I rarely go to that carries mostly RC cars and planes. The sad part of the story is that it is a stationary kit and in 1/26 scale. Maybe if I switched scales it could work out. The maker is Minicraft model kits which is a British maker with a US distibuter. It is kit 11101. Overall it seems a nice model and even has a short section of early strap type rail to display it on.

I remember once reading an old MR from the 70's or early 80's that featured a review of a G scale live steam version of this engine. I remember they tested it outside by the pool and it derailed and went for a swim. There was a pic of a sheepish looking Andy Sperando 'rescuing' it. Wonder if they finished the review? Perhaps this static model is a variation on that version as it is in a similar scale.