Mini Camera update as promised

[waltrapp]

I promised an update on the 1.2 gHz mini camera w/sound system which I bought from SJT Enterprises while at April York. You may have seen him selling them in the Purple hall this year. Lots to say but will try to limit.

I set up a 4'x8' test loop on Homasote and got out a PS2 engine and some cars.

I had a LOT of interference broadcasting from my living room to my TV in my den directly below the living room. Moved the receiver all over the house, both upstairs and downstairs and just couldn't find an interference-free location. Around my little loop it would break up 6 to 10 times! Sometimes it would just be a quick zzzzttt and other times it would be like in olden days when you watched TV during a lightning storm and it really zapped. I recorded the sessions because Jerry, the proprietor, wanted to see the results. He said he had NEVER seen anything like my results and that it was BY FAR the worst he has ever seen.

Jerry has been very cooperative and supportive. We've spent many phone calls talking this over. What he thinks it's down to is that I have too much hot-air duct-work under my living room floor, which I do. I have 3 of the 4 perimeter sides of the floor which have duct work under them. And this is in a very confined space of 15'x15'. Jerry calls my problem a problem of 'reflection'.

But, being the nice guy that he is, he sent me a 2.4gHz mini camera w/sound, on trust, to try. I tried it. The picture is brighter and the audio is better, but the interference stayed the same. I recorded more sessions because Jerry asked for me to try certain things, so I did and sent the video to Jerry and he is stumped for a solution.

I've tried raising the 4'x8' off the floor 3' but that had marginal improvement at best.

I've moved the 4'x8' layout in all places within the living room area to see if I just happened to originally set things up at the worst possible place - in the dead center of the living room. While there are small differences based on location, none are a great relief. No matter where I position the layout or the receiver I get anywhere from 5 to 10 breakups per loop.

I tried not using DCS, using DCS, using a non-PS2 engine (a K-Line speeder), etc. Nothing is helping.

Back to Jerry: he really DOES care about getting this to work. He continually says to me "NO, don't give up. This is challenging". He wants to learn from my experiences it seems like. So listen to what he's up to: he's going to custom-make a new antenna for me!!!! He's hoping the new design will minimize, if not eliminate, the reflection problem.

Now, is THAT a professional or what??? Oh, and I'm still in possession of both camera systems, only one of which I paid for, and Jerry has NEVER expressed any concern and has NEVER brought up returning them - he knows I will and he trusts me to do so.

So that's where I'm at. Right now I'd have to say that the interference is so bad that it's not really enjoyable to watch. If the new antenna doesn't reduce the disturbances then I will be returning the cameras for a refund.

One last comment: I've wanted one of these mini cameras for my layout for 5 or 6 years now. At York I decided it would be my treat to myself this year. I was REALLY excited and couldn't wait to use it. As I now watch and re-watch the videos I constantly ask myself: "can I still enjoy watching this? Can I live with the interference if the alternative is not having the camera?" It's a TOUGH question to answer! Last night I got out a second PS2 engine. I hooked up the camera to the rear of the diesel and ran it about 9" to 18" in front of my PS2 steamer - under DCS so that I could control the distance apart. REALLY COOL!!!!!!! Because I had something to concentrate on besides the interference I was enjoying it. BUt the interference just can't be ignored - it's too bad.

boy, my fingers are tired [:D] Time to stop.

thanks - walt

[dougdagrump]

Walt, What about putting the receiver in the same room as the layout and dropping a feed to the den, utilizing an existing path thru the walls or actually an existing TV connection. Just a thought.

[TexasEd]

I wonder if the antennas are directional. Does it always happen with the antennas in the same oreintation to one another?

[waltrapp]

dougdagrump: if there's a combination that I HAVEN'T tried I'd be surprised. I went as far as bringing my WOODEN step ladder into the same room and mounting the receiver on top of it in the middle of the loop and even that didn't help.

TexasEd: The directions say for optimal reception to have both antennae in the same orientation - so I was careful to always do that. I even tried both being horizontal instead of the traditional vertical position.

One thing that I forgot to mention about the level of cooperation that I'm getting from Jerry: He's planning on coming to a Monroeville (near me) train show in November and asked if he could stop by the house with some equipment to see if he could get this thing working better. Beat that for cooperation,huh? I point these things out about Jerry so it's obvious that even he isn't satisfied with the results and is concerned enough, and cares enough, to do the unexpected.

- walt

[wrmcclellan]

Walt,

Is there a battery used in the camera's power supply or does it just get power from the track?

We run a K-Line camera car on the club layout and it works pretty good, but everytime it hits a switch, crossover, some rail joints, etc., the picture pops and jerks as one might expect. Obviously the track and pickup rollers must be very clean as this causes problems also.

We have been discussing adding a rechargeable battery to the power supply as:

1. It would smooth track power interruptions
2. Batteries are great filters for noise on the internal power supply lines
3. Unlike the old Lionel camera car and like MTH sound systems, the battery would be charging most of the time

I will be interested to hear how it goes for you. I was also intrigued by their display at York, but I spent all my money on trains. Glad to hear you are getting great support from this gentleman.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

If your using batteries for power, I've found they only last a few minutes before the transmission starts to become poor.

An antenna transmits sideways, so if an antenna is vertical it will radiate to the sides like a doughnut. Not vertically.
Likewise the receiving antenna will pick up the best signal from the same sort of direction. If you have one antenna on one floor and the other antenna on another floor they will not 'see' each other.
Ideally the receiver antenna needs to be at layout baseboard level, and as someone else has suggested, run the AV cables to your TV or PC.

[TexasEd]

Directional antennas mean they have to point at one another face to face. as the train goes around in circles the antennas will get out of alignment.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TexasEd

Directional antennas mean they have to point at one another face to face. as the train goes around in circles the antennas will get out of alignment.

The 1.2gHz and 2.4gHx wireless system uses whip antennas which are omnidirectional. Other than needing to be on, or very near, the same plane, there is no noticeable difference in lateral orientation

[waltrapp]

Governor: your comments are interesting. I don't quite understand what you're suggesting that though.

Jerry didn't seem to mind that I was transmitting from upstairs to downstairs. I did try bringing the receiver into the same room. I don't recall if I ever put it on the floor in the same room though. Jerry kept suggesting that 'higher' would be better. I only tried having both in a vertical position one time.

What test would you suggest that I do? I still have the test track up and am willing to try anything that might help.

As for running the signal thru a cable down to the TV, I did mention that to Jerry and he didn't think the signal would be strong enough. I don't have an easy way to test that and I'm not going to drill new holes in my floor/ceiling not knowing if it'll work. I can use existing TV cable runs to get from the living room to my downstairs TV. If it works then would consider something more permanent. Remember, mine is a Christmas-only layout.

thanks - walt

[Anonymous]

From what I gather, you have the txer in one room and the rxer (with the TV) in the room below (althoug vice versa arrives at the same conclusion).
A vertical whip antenna (or stiff wire in the case of the txer) radiates the signal in a 'doughnut' pattern, that is 90 degrees from the vertical i.e. sideways. There is very little signal radiating downwards from the base of the antenna, which presumably is the very direction you are wanting the signal to go.
With the rxer antenna also in a vertical position, that would be 'expecting' a signal from the sides, not from above.
If you haven't done this already, it is worth laying both antennas horizontally and have the rxer as directly in line underneath the txer as possible.

One other course of action would be to have all the wireless cam equipment in the same room and use a 'video sender' kit to send the image to another room.

[waltrapp]

Govenor: Thanks. I have not tried anything like that. I would think there are are 3 ways to accompli***his test:

1. keep the camera (transmitter) upstairs but orient the antenna on it to be in the horizontal position. Keep the receiver downstairs and also orient the antenna horizontal (this is your scenario I believe).

2. Move the receiver upstairs to the same room and put in on the floor so that it is at the same height as the camera. have BOTH in a vertical, upright, position.

3. Keep the receiver upstairs in the same room. Put it on top of my wooden step ladder with the antenna oriented horizontally. set the antenna on the camera to be horizontal too. Similiar to test 1 but the receiver is in the same room.

I will give this a shot.

thanks!!! - walt

[Anonymous]

Yes that's right Walt, No 1 is how I meant it.
No 2 will give the best reception but obviously doesn't get the image downstairs without more work/equipment.
No 3 won't work if No 2 doesn't so I wouldn't even bother trying that one.

There is a slim possibility that there is some other equipment in the house that is causing interference on the same frequency (or a harmonic of it).
Microwaves, fridges and electric motors (both AC and DC) in various equipment can cause problems.

[waltrapp]

RATS! [:(]

I tried only #1 and #2 and neither yielded results any better than I've been getting.

Spoke with Jerry yesterday and he said he is only a few days away from having a new prototype antenna ready for me to try.

I hope it works. Lately, each time I try something (and record it) I have a diesel either in front of of sometimes behind my steam engine with all its MTH smoke in glorious view and sounds accompanying all the motion! So cool. Then every 3 seconds there's a zzzztt and mix in a few zaps too and, well, I just have to imagine how nice a clear constant broadcast would be.

Thanks for the suggestions. I need a new house!!!! Yeah, that's the ticket. Get a new mortgage so that I can use my $150 camera system! [:D]

- Walt

[waltrapp]

Roy, excuse my rudeness for forgetting to acknowledge your comments. The camera for both camera systems are powered by battery but the receiver I have powered using a converter.

thanks - walt

[lionelsoni]

The horizontal antenna radiates downward, but needs to be aligned with the horizontal receiving antenna in the room below. The only way I know to radiate downward without requiring alignment between transmitting and receiving antennas is to use circularly-polarized antennas in both cases. Unfortunately, these are a bit more complicated than the dipoles you seem to have been using.

This is the same problem that GPS navigation signals have, radiating from above with no reliable alignment between antennas, and the same solution.

I can think of a possible workaround: Use vertical dipoles for both antennas. Put the upstairs trains on the floor and the downstairs antenna close to the ceiling, so that it is not far from the plane of the upstairs floor. A simple dipole is not highly directional; so, if the receiving antenna is no more than a few feet from the height of the train and off to one side of the track, it might get a reliable signal.

[wrmcclellan]

Walt,

Thanks for the feedback on the battery. As I understand your more recent posts, this is occurring every 3 seconds or so. I also understand that it did not work any better when the TX and RX were in the same room.

If you are getting a clear picture (which you imply) in between the zaps, then I think signal level is not your problem. Otherwise you would have a lousy picture in between zaps.

I do not think changing to a dipole will help. Additionally a dipole requires a balanced feed line vs the ground plane and whip (1/2 of a dipole) that is the current configuration. This would require a balun to feed the center of the dipole which starts to complicate things. Without the balun the antenna pattern performance is no better than what currently exists (extending a second wire off the ground plane without a balun is simply an extension of the ground plane and not a good one either).

I think you have interference. Clean picture followed by chaos is typically interference.

As Governor suggested - look for some device that is cycling at the same periodicity in your house (i.e. an aquarium heater that is not working too well). Also try changing some of the components powering your layout, maybe there is a problem there. Make sure all your track is nice and tight at all connections. Also make sure you have a good ground to all your test system components if any of your equipment you are using requires ground.

BTW - another thought - I do not recall if you said it does this if it is not moving. If it can sit there for a long period with nothing else happening, then this would be related to the train you are running. I would also see how it performs by manually pushing the camera around if that is possible.

Good luck. I am out of town for all of this coming week at a Scout campout.

Regards,
Roy

[lionelsoni]

Roy, if my mention of "dipole" is what you are referring to, I wasn't trying to suggest that a dipole would work any better than a monopole. In this case, I wouldn't expect much difference in the radiation patterns.

[waltrapp]

Roy,

I appreciate all of your suggestions and have mulled them over.

I don't have any other electronice devices that might be sending out interferring signals so I'll rule that one out.

As you suggested I tried:

* a different transformer

* Using DCS and then not using DCS

* 3 different PS2 engines and then one conventional engine

* Tight track connections - I'm careful about that always. Plus, even though temporary, I do have it screwed down so I can move it around. But since it's a battery powered camera I don't get the connection there.

* I hooked up 4 boxcars to an engine and taped the camera to the furthest one from the engine - versus other tests where the camera was taped to an engine.

* With the camera taped to the boxcar, I unplugged the transformer. I held the car in my hand about 5' above the track and walked it in an oval above the track.

* I took everything off the track and pushed the boxcar around the track - once with power to the rails and once without power.

I record everything that I do. I didn't notice any difference in the results no matter what test I looked at. I think my house it just not conducive to using the camera. Boo-Hoo!!!

When I watch a clear picture and think of how nice running this on my 14'x14' Christmas layout with scenery would be I just keep holding out for some miracle solution!! It's so cool to watch at track level.

thanks for all of the suggestions - I did try them.

- walt

[eZAK]

Walt,
Have you tried a K-line camera car?
This may rule out your house.

Would it be possible to move the test layout outside the house?
i.e. porch, patio, garage, etc.

I kitbashed an X-10 camera to run off track power about 4yrs ago.
It is still working with a clear picture.

[waltrapp]

Pat: No, I have not tried the K-Line car. Two reasons:

1. Spending $225 on a K-Line car just to see if it's my house or the cameras seems a bit pricey - to me!

2. Now that I have experienced sound cameras I don't think I'd much enjoy the soundless K-Line car.

Take it outside?! HMM, interesting. I guess I'd have to take the TV and receiver outside too to eliminate the issue of the duct work getting in the way. I think I'll give that a go. What the hey, I've tried everything else!

thanks - walt

[dougdagrump]

Walt, I know absolutely nothing about this stuff but before you try moving everything outside to test is there a way of turning the sound off and trying it? Like I said I don;t know anything about this stuff but it seems like you have tried everything else.

[waltrapp]

grump: If you saw one of these cameras - there's just a little hole, and I mean LITTLE, in the plastic shell with an 'audio' lable by it. I don't think it can be turned off from transmitting unless I would unsolder some of the internals - which I don't know how to reach anyways.

Yes, I have tried just about everything short of moving [:D] . But who knows, maybe someone's suggestion will be the miracle cure that I'm looking for. I think in this case 'miracle' is probably the right word!

I'm curious, why do you think shutting off the sound would make a positive difference?

thanks - walt

[eZAK]

Walt,

I did not mean for you to go by one but may be borrow one from a freind or hobby shop.

The K-line car Does NOT have sound!!! WOW! I'm shocked!

After all it is an X-10 cam!
My X-10 has sound and can even be viewed on the computer.

On a side note, The cam receiver is mounted approx. 5 feet from the layout as the crow flies. (3' from an end & 4' above)

[dougdagrump]

Grasping at straws maybe, that's about the only thing you haven't tried yet. But if it's not something that is an on/off choice it's a moot point.

[waltrapp]

guys, believe me, I truly appreciate all of your comments and suggestions. Either:

1. the 2 camera systems (1.2 ghz and 2.4 ghz) I bought (both from the same company) are junk compared to other systems, or,

2. my house just doesn't lend itself to using them.

I showed a video I recoreded to a true train nut friend. he is like a 56 year old 9 year old, know what I mean, when it comes to trains. He can't get enough. His comment "send them back".

I haven't gone outside yet. I am looking forward to doing that. if things don't work well outside that HAS to mean the camera systems have a problem. I'm having a very hard time believing that though. Jerry has been selling these things for years. I've seen him at York for as long as I've been going there. Local shows (Monroeville) too. A guy couldn't stay in business that long if his product was junk.

If things don't work outside I might have to ask Jerry if there's something going on all around my neighborhood that it screwing things up. It's so continual though that it would have to be something beyond a neighbor using a cell phone or something like that.

I'll let you know how the outdoor test goes.

As always, thanks - walt

[Anonymous]

Missed this thread for a while during computer problems.
Another test you can do, if you are stil percevering of course :-)
Turn all the electric off to your house, run the camera car on a battery as usual and 'borrow' the electric from a neighbour using an extension lead (power cord?) for the receiver and television.

If it then works I'm not suggesting you do this every time you want to record 'from the cab' but it will give an idea if the problem is interference from your own house.

[waltrapp]

Governor: now that's one DRASTIC suggestion!!! I have tried powering BOTH the camera and the receiver with a battery. It made NO difference. Of course I never thought to ask my neighbor if I could borrow some electricity for the TV though! :-)

I don't have a cell, my cordless was in the jack, microwave wasn't running, nothing was on except a couple of electric clocks, the refridgerator, and the TV.

One thing that I hvae not tried is powering the receiver from a different circuit than the TV - I never would have figured that would matter.

thanks - walt

[Anonymous]

Walt,

I didn't catch whether you experience these dropouts when everything is stationary or only while moving.

Try this. Since you are bettery powered on the camera, rig up a tv next to the layout with the receiver in the same room. With the camera on a boxcar or flat, and NOTHING moving, even yourself, is the picture stable? No dropping out? If so, try moving the car very slowly along the straight track. Do you find a spot where the signal breaks up? If yes keep moving the car slowly. Does the picture improve? If yes keep moving the car down the track to where it breaks up again. If this is what happens then you are getting a reflected signal from some metallic object that is causing signal cancellations.

IF the signal periodically drops out when EVERYTHING is stationary then you have an external source of rf radiation that is causing your problem. I get an amazing amount of hash and "boops" from the wall charger for my cell phone. I get similar sounds from my electric razor charging.

I have several remote reading outdoor thermometers that transmit on 433-434 Mhz. Maybe a third harmonic from one of them? I doubt it, but stranger things have happened.

The key point here is that you must establish a benchmark setup that eliminates as many variable situations as possible so just one parameter at a time can be changed. Having anything moving just muddies the waters so much no one can determine what is happening. So start with all elements absolutely stationary and vary just one at a time.

Tony
K3Puffing Choo Choo

[Anonymous]

You haven't got one of these in the garden have you?

[waltrapp]

tony: thanks for those testing situations. Yes, I have tried those tests. The picture, if it starts clear, stays clear. I pushed the car by hand stopping it where the picture and sound crumbled and tried moving the receiver to see if I could make something happen. No help - I thought for sure that moving the receiver would make a difference but it didn't.

Governor: no, no power lines running anywhere near my house.

I know that reading, and remembering, EVERYTHING in a long thread like this is nearly impossible. Jerry said that if he stops by my house in November he's going to bring some equipment with him: wonder if he's thinking some of the same things that you guys are: could it be stray signals?

BTW: Since I have the loop mounted on a 4'x8' piece of Homasote, I've moved it all over the living room, even elevating it off the floor 3 or 4 feet.

as always, thanks - walt