Smoke Article/ CTT, It could have been better!

[BigJim]

*** Teal's article on improving Lionel smoke units seems to have met with rave reviews and justly so. However, I feel Mr. Teal's article could have and should have been much better. Heresy you say? Read on.

First we have a great find by Mr. Teal and a fairly easy explanation on how to perform the fix. What is lacking is the proper pictures!

Look closely at the pictures. I count three different smoke units. There is no diagram tracing the proper progression of the air through the unit. Since the blades are turning backwards, there is no explanation of why smoke doesn't get sucked in through the stack and into the engine shell???

There are also no photos related to "Fixing charred parts". This would have been very helpful by giving some idea of what exactly to expect when one does crack open the smoke unit. What is normal and what is not.

I hope Mr. Teal reads this as constructive criticism. Thanks for passing this information along.

I do feel that the editors of CTT could have done a much better job by including diagrams and pictures more relavent to the entire text of the article.

[MartyE]

Jim

I don't think you're off the mark here. I do better by pictures as sometimes the text does not come across. I agree some more pictures certainly would have pushed the article better but I still say it was quite a find at least in my stable so far.

[ChiefEagles]

I guess I know more than I thought about smoke units as I used his article and went right on. Never opened a fan driven smoke unit before as they were not around when I left the hobby in the mid 80's. I found everything just as he explained it. Charred sleeve and charred wick. I hit the power on my CAB1 and saw the fan turning the right way [with the top off of the unit]. Mr. Teal gave the repairman's process to do the Lionel job [which his customers expect]. The only thing I could add came from experiences from a friend [Buckeye] who had experimented with some mods to the system. I had my units back smoking great following Mr. Teal's article, but then went with Buckeye's suggestions. Replaced the wicks with pink insultaion [gots bunches of it around the house] and removed the sleeves [that I had scraped the charr off of earlier]. Made sure the element was still heating and made sure it was pressing down on the insulation I had used for wick. Smokes even better. Servicing the smoke unit each time you service the engine was suggested by Mr. Teal. I will just add new insulation each time I service my engines. From what I hear at the repair/hobby shop in my area, the article has stired a lot of fixes for poor smoking Lionels. I even had a guy in Mass. tell me he found all 5 of his Lionel steamers with wrong rotating fans. More detail is great but it sure got things rolling. I now have a photo [from Marty E ] on how to check for wrong phased speakers which causes poor performance of the sound system. All because of Mr. Teal's article on smoke units. I hope CTT will publi***hat picture in some article or column soon. Just my [2c] worth.

[Anonymous]

Big Jim,

Thanks for the ideas. It's always difficult to decide what to include because of book space concerns. I agree that pictures tell the story. I'll keep this in mind for future articles.

The book that's coming out this fall has 70 pictures to help tell the story but I'm sure more would have been better.

The other problem I see is how far should I go. The book is aimed at the simple to medium repair and if major work is required I suggest that the engine be taken to a service center. Kalmbach asked that I write it about simple repair but these new electronic wonders are never simple so I moved the mark a little farther. It's not a book to teach a repair tech how to fix trains but it will help them.

I'm also willing to answer questions if you are willing to E-Mail me. My address is ***@teals.org

Thanks again,

*** Teal

[laz 57]

CHIEF are you and BUCKEYE saying that if you remove the sleve on the coil wire you will get more smoke production?
laz57

[laz 57]

How do you remove the sleeve? Do you have to cut it off or do you use the solder iron?
laz57

[MartyE]

If you have small enough scissors and some patience then cutting it off is the best way to go.

[ChiefEagles]

Very sharp pocket knife. Do not cut into the element. Mine is very sharp pointed. Start point in the end and cut straight across to the outside [not from the outside inward] as not to damage fine wire on element. They are smoking up a storm. Does take a lot of soaking as I found out I was runn ing mine too dry. Had one stop and put out only a small amount. Thought I had over filled. Took it down to see. Was too dry. Now I flood them with 12 or more drops when they drop back in output. Smoke away in a few minutes. Buckeye lets his sit over night after loading up.

[ben10ben]

To remove the sleeve, I use a fairly sharp(although not necessarily new) #11 Exacto blade cutting straight across as Chief describes above with the pocket knife. I prefer the Exacto blade as the narrow, sharp tips allows you to get in closer to the element without worrying about damaging it.

As for the article, I looked at my K-line Trainmaster, reversed the fan per the directions, and it's smoking up a storm now too. I hadn't run it for a while, and the wick was bone dry. A dropper full of JT's Mega Steam(Vanilla) took care of that quickly.

[laz 57]

Do you leave the element bare then?
laz57

[Jumijo]

I'm a little confused by the cutting instructions Chief and Ben have discussed ("cut straight across to the outside [not from the outside inward] as not to damage fine wire on element"). Are you guys saying to cut the sleeve lengthwise from one end to the other? Parallel to the elelment wire it wraps around?

Ben, your K-Line had it's wires reversed like all the Lionel's?

Jim

[ChiefEagles]

jaabat, yes. Ben's use of an exacto knife is great. I keep a very sharp pointed pocket knife with very shrap blade, so I used that. Most folks don't so the exacto is great. The sleeve is over the element. By sliding the point between the element and the inside of the sleeve, you cut outward and in a straight line all the way across the sleeve. If charred, you have to peel it off of the element. If not charred, it will just slide off. Object is not to damage the thin wire wrapped around the element body. Hope this explains it better.

[Jumijo]

Thanks, Chief. Much clearer now.

Jim

[Kooljock1]

Silly as this may seem, I now open my new engines before I even run them on my layout, just so I can cut off the silly sleeve. Even a small amount of running with the sleeve on can scorch and melt it to the element so badly that it reduces smoke production.

Which begs the question: why do they use it in the first place?!?!??

I mean, the element is supposed to heat the fluid right? And the fluid is supposed to cool the element, right? So LIONEL places a barrier between them?!?!?

I just don't get it.

Jon [8D]

[ChiefEagles]

Good thinking Jock. Buckeye and I discussed the same thing. Now Buckeye and I want to know why these smart engineers do not come up with a better smoke system. A reservoir of smoke fluid and a dispersing system like oil injected motorcycles and boat engines. Then none of this guessing about how much fluid to put in, when to add it, is it scorching the wick due to not enough fluid and so on. OH WELL, in the future.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Chief and I discussed why a better smoke unit couldn't be designed based upon how an outboard motor has a oil reservoir.

If I were Lionel and of course I wanted to make more money from all of us who want more smoke, I would make the reservoir an interchangable Lionel Smoke Bottle. Remove the empty bottle and then insert new bottle much like we put ink into our printers.

[laz 57]

GOOD IDEAR GIZ,
laz57

[CSX FAN]

***

great artical! I could follow the idea no problem.I'm sure I'm going to find all of my fans backward since none of them work anymore. The funny thing is that I returned my EM-1 because the smoke quit after ten minutes. They gave me a new smoke unit and it died also.

I found the unit reversed on my J and found the sleeve to be very charred. yet the resivor was full.

I have to ask the same question as Laz did. Do you cut the sleeve off and leave it off? will it burn something up if you do? I don't have a sleeve laying around. The unit can work if I put drops on it but it woun't when I reassemble it. I scraped alot of the carred surface off but I think it needs to go.


Jamie

[ben10ben]

You'll be fine if you cut the sleeve off. The wicking will char, but it's much, much easier to replace than the sleeve is, and won't cut off the oil supply to the element when it does.

Another good suggestion from the famous OGR forum member Norm C. is to stick a toothpick down the stack and pu***he wicking around until you get the maximum amount of smoke. This allows you to achieve by trial and error the best combination between airflow and heater area.

I still think that American Flyer units had the best design for an element with a piece of nichrome wire wrapped around a two foot long bundle of fiberglass. The American Flyer unit had two separate chambers, one to hold the majority of the wick and smoke fluid(resevoir) and the other directly above it to hold the heater part of the wick and have air blow directly across it.

[CSX FAN]

Thanks ben

I have found three of three reversed. After I reverse I've only got one unit to smoke because it was new. I need to try the tooth pick, the new unit was clogged with stuffing material and blocked the vent hole. So try and cut off the wick as directed above?

A quick check would be to take a piece of tissue paper and put the edge on the smoke stack. there is enough air movement that will blow it up if it is right. The backward one will just sit there.

I have found on all of my units the red wire should be on the outboard side of the smoke unit for proper direction.

Is this tip as good as the DCS light bulb trick?[:D]

Does CTT host photo's on this forum? If so how do you do it?

Jamie

[ChiefEagles]

Jamie, I use plain old pink fiberglass insulation for wicking. If it get charred, guess what? Find it around the house. I pack some in and make sure it does not block the air flow [slot from fan area to heat area] slot. Then I bend down the element [it usually has an S shape on each end where it is attached to the board. I make sure it touches the fiberglass insulation. This allows the wicking ot furni***he smoke fluid to the element [since the sleeve is now gone]. The sleeve was to wick up the fluid form the wick and give the element a complete circle of fluid. Not the best material in the world to do that. One reason to chunk it.

[CSX FAN]

Drained out the excess fuild and all are working well. 4 for 4 on the reversed fans. I used an MTH wick and works well. The other unit weren't scorced so I had less work to do with them.

Thanks for the Tips ***

[laz 57]

Removed the sleeve last nite on the SD80 and is smoking up a storm.
laz57

[ChiefEagles]

Why does it take Yankees so long ot learn? Sounded like he did not beilive me. [:D]

[Kooljock1]

I just finished the fix on my LionMaster T-1. WHAT A DIFFERENCE![:D]

I'm now getting almost MTH quantity and "loft" out of the stack.

Question: if the smoke production is significantly less when the engine is running, does that signify that my old KW is being over-drawn on power? I am running seven K-Line Streamliner FOM cars behind the T-1, add in the two motors, plus a freight on the adjacent track...

Well anyway, thanks for the heads-up CTT!

Jon [8D]

[laz 57]

CHIEF a question on the batting? When the smokes starts to slacken how many drops should I put in? Will this hurt the smoke element if there is too much fluid? When do you put new batting in?
laz57

[ChiefEagles]

On the wick [batting to some Yankees], have not had to replace one. Too much fluid, can blow down the exhaust and it will come out or just wait and let it evaporate or hit CAB1 9 some until it burns it out [don't hold it too long at one time]. Not going to hurt to have too much. I find that it takes a lot more fluid as it is burning more and thus its gone. Buckeye and I load it up with about 6 or 8 drops of after a long run [and still smoking good] after we shut it down. Also we find it smokes better with JT's and then a few drop of Lionel added with it. You'll have to judge by the unit and how much it burns it out.

[CSX FAN]

Trust me you can put to much fuild in!!! [xx(]

[ChiefEagles]

Well, I had two today that I thought I had drowned. Found out they needed more fluid. They burn it up fast. I'm adding about twice as much as before the modification. Even the dummy slowed up. I said the heck with it. Added a whole drooper full of JT's and it smoked up a storm.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ChiefEagles

. . .Also we find it smokes better with JT's and then a few drop of Lionel added with it. . . .

I'll second that. I think a blend gives optimal results. The Lionel fluid adds to the duration, or time between having to fill up again. It makes it more robust too.

I tried JT's and wasn't impressed. The smoke wasn't as dense and didn't last very long. When I mixed it with Lionel's, it made a noticable difference. For what my opinion is worth, I think Lionel's smoke fluid is as good if not better than any other brand. I don't know if they've changed it somehow, but I recently bought a bottle and it seemed to perform much better than the last one. It's all I use now.

Jim