Am I doing our hobby a disservice by buying everything online?

[FJ and G]

k, I admit it that I'm out for trains at the best price. I have made some impulse buys at hobby shops, but I don't really support them with my wallet.

Not intentional, just that I prefer to get my trains at the best price possible.

In the past, calls have gone out to support our local hobby shops because that is where the public primarily sees toy trains and becomes enamored and hooked on them.

I admit to feeling a bit guilty about my past actions, but don't really plan to change.

Have I sinned?

[laz 57]

DAVE whatever floats your boat or blows up your skirt. Bottom line is that you are the one paying the money. Also there are lots of things out there that the local shops can't get and you'll onley see it on line.
laz57

[Anonymous]

If you are sinning, then so is everyone ( I MEAN EVERYONE) who shops at Wal Mart.

If you are sinning by shopping online, then so is everyone who buys something from a mail order hobby shop out of one of CTT's adds.

If you are sinning, then so are all the local hobby shops that have web sites.

No, the answer is you are not. Rest easy my son.

Before the flames hit let me tell you my reasoning....
America was built on supply and demand. Sears was built on it's catalogue, Wal Mart was built on the backs of young Chinese workers....ok sorry, getting off topic.....

Supply and Demand.

I go and support my local hobby shops (40 mins away) because they have knowledge, and inventory on hand. I don't have to wait, and I don't have to pay shipping charges. But they do have overhead, salaries, and limited hours and that's a part of the business. They also have talented, dedicated staff. They have service!. They have something that is more than a commodity. If I want to shop I go there to shop. But I too have bought more online than in a store. If I only bought things in a store, I would have dropped out of this hobby already and I wouldn't be buying anything from the local hobby shop.

Finally, when my grandfather bought my father a Lionel set in 1947, he didn't buy it at a "train store" he bought it at the corner hardware store. That hardware store was probably pretty upset when the train and hobby shop opened up down the street. But that's the way it was, that's the way it is, and that's the way it will always be.

This hobby will survive if two things happen. 1. dedicated people are advocates for the hobby, and 2. the general public can afford to get into it.

The internet and the local hobby shop have to find their niche.

now after all that....."support your local train shop"

[IRONROOSTER]

The whole retail process is changing. With online, TV shopping, the big box discount stores, and shows; there are many new ways for products to be sold. Since most of these new venues offer reduced prices and manage to stay in business, they must be more efficient. Just as Safeway, Food Lion, etc spelled the end of the mom and pop groceries, so do the above spell the end of the traditional local hobby shop.

So really you are part of the new retail process. Hobby shops in the future will have to have a large stock and discount prices. This will limit the number and location. I already do most of my buying online and at shows since S scale isn't carried in my LHS.
Actually, with the Internet I am better able to keep up with all that's available. Hobby shops and even good shows like GSMTS aren't able to carry everything - but almost every manufacturer has a web site.

I think the hobby will survive. Trains, planes, cars, and ships in minature will always be fascinating and will attract hobbyists. We'll just buy them differently.

Enjoy
Paul

[Jumijo]

My attitude towards purchasing on-line is that after you get done paying shipping charges, you don't always come out that far ahead, and if something goes wrong, you need to send it back to them, yadda yadda yadda . . . whereas if you buy from a local shop, you might pay more (you also might not), but you have a place to bring a defective item. A lot less time and money is involved in fixing any problems because you exclude the whole mailing to and fro thing from the equation. Also, no chance of damage or loss due to shipping. That piece of mind is worth something to me. I've also found that if you purchase from a local store with any noticible frequency, they usually discount. Also, they are right there to answer any questions you have, you can see what you're buying beforehand. To me, it's just a better way to purchase things.

As far as doing the hobby a disservice, I look at that this way. Most mail order houses are just local brick and mortar hobby shops that also sell on-line. Some are bigger than others, but any hobby shop could do it. I think the real disservice is being done by those shops that don't sell on-line. They are ignoring a very large potential customer base that would greatly subsidize their bottom line, which would make them more viable, so that LOCAL customers could continue to frequent the store.

Jim

[brianel027]

Remember gang, the train companies themselves are very aware of what is happening. They have the numbers. They know full well who is ordering the greatest quantities of product in advance.

The ugly reality is that those who are ordering the largest quantities upfront are more than likely getting the best price. Some of the large mailorder places are also wholesalers who serve smaller shops. The irony is that these places can sometimes offer train products to the public direct at much better prices than small dealers are able to get the product for.

I know at one time there was some grumbling from Lionel dealers that you could see any Tom, *** or Harry at a train show, selling Lionel products - current products (that are not suppose to be sold at shows) at lower prices than the small dealers can get them for on a wholesale level. Unfortunately there's little to stop some one from buying trains from a large mailorder house and then reselling them at a profit.

The disservice will be done away with when all dealers - large and small - have the same equal access to product at the same competitive wholesale prices. But I don't see that happening as the companies depend too much on the advance preorder captial to operate on. They're all spending a lot of money on tooling (nevermind other normal business operating expenses).

Truth is the large mailorder venues can sell for less because they are typically taking a very large percentage of a production run and are partially paying for that product in advance. And the ones who are distributors as well as retailers have an extrra advantage of being able to retail train products for far less than most can even get those same products for AND still make a profit.

We train consumers are simply looking for the best prices. It is really the wholesale and retail rules of the train companies themselves that have created this situation of undermining the smaller, more localized dealers. I'm not dumping on the industry... I'm just saying there's no reason for the consumer to feel guilty. If the train companies themselves were really concerned about this, they would change the rules to give all dealers an equal footing as far as product availablity and pricing goes.

[siberianmo]

I sin, I have sinned, I will sin, I lke sinning, to sin or not to sin? sin away, sin away, sin away all.

Yeah - my model railroad "stuff" (well over 10 grand) has overhwelmingly been purchased through on-line sources and I have saved lots of bucks in the process. I'm a "record keeper" and know darned well that without the taxes and free shipping, savings are there. My bucks are better spent where they get the most bang ....... so if sinning is the answer, I'm all for it!

See ya![tup]

[Sturgeon-Phish]

Me delima is there is not a "local" hobby shop that deals in American Flyer compatable stuff and in a year's time there is two train shows within 70 miles. 99% of my train stuff has been bought online. What is missing, buying online is the advice and expertise that the hobby shop workers provided. That niche is being filled with online forums as this one, which provides an even greater resource of wisdom to draw from. Unfortunatly, progress has changed the market. A piece of "Americana" is the local hobby shop, but so was the 5 and 10 and a drugstore with a soda fountain. We relive these times in making our layouts and diaramas.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm with you Dave, I shop for price, and the local hobby shops don't compare. I don't worry about service, because the stores in my area don't offer much anyway, and I've learned to do it myself.

I think it's getting to the point where most people don't just wander into hobby stores any more. They go there when they are already in a hobby, not when they are looking for something to do.

[palallin]

The LHS in my area (the ONLY one withint 100 miles) is owned by a good friend of mine who stocks little that I can use and tells me to order away on those things (most) that he cannot get for me. I buy from him what I can when I can, but it's not that much, and not only doesn't object, he gets some of his own personal stuff that way, too.

[Anonymous]

Hello Dave: It's a free market out there, so shop where you want. If I had a hobby shop I would DEFINITELY offer a on-line service. Kind Regards Steve

[philo426]

No you have not sinned,If the price disparity between the LHS and the mail-order house is very large than it is a no-brainer:Go for the lower price.If,however.the gap is smaller you must make a personal calculation of the value that the LHS provides.Do they give you good service and have expert repair services and parts available?Only you can decide if the LHS provides that value and make your purchasing decisions accordingly.

[selector]

If you own the bucks, you own the choice, Dave. "He who pays the piper calls the tune."

If the LHS owner won't offer to match an internet price (with shipping factored in), he/she can't really expect you to part with your brass.

That said, I do take exception to the remark about 'the backs of Chinese workers.." above. Can the author assure us that the workers were ungrateful for the work and its associated pay, whatever it is? How about those dependant on them? Does the author suggest that they ought to be paid North American union rates? If so, is he prepared to pay $1200 for a locomotive, $400 for a DVD player, $300 for a replacement headlight lense for his car, or #120 for a pair of jeans? Please, a little common sense.

[Dr.Fu-Manchu]

The Doctor is in !!! First: As I am ordained minister(when not being an evil doctor) I give Dispensation to the members who feel that they have done, Now, Place your hands on the screen and feel the blessing !!!! Now, as to buying on-line: As I buy very little new stuff(post war is my focus) I deal on line at auction sites and train shows. I have a dealer in Oakland, CA. that I buy spare parts and used items that strike me (people for my layout) I will go where I can to get what I need. The next closest hobby shop is in Concord, Ca. The gas does cover the savings if any I might get. My advice: Buy where you find a deal, be it online or at your LHS. But, If you can shop local, do so !
Till My Next Missive, I Remain The Humble, Yet Strangly Evil Doctor !!![}:)][angel]

[Anonymous]

There's certainly nothing wrong with being an informed and prudent consumer, and shopping for the best price for the item(s) you want. From a consumer perspective, you really should not worry all that much about how a particular businessman operates his enterprise. If he has what you want, and if he offers it at a price that you find attractive enough, chances are you'll open your wallet when you're at his shop. If he's not satisfying his customers in one way or antoher, he'll eventually fall by the wayside. That's just the nature of business in a free and open economy.

I do most of my shopping via mail order, with the assistance of on-line web sites, magazines, and other resources. I do not do eBay simply because I'm not interested in that venue as a source for items I most need or want. Not knocking eBay, just saying that it has no relevance to my purchasing decisions. I have to resort to mail order, in most cases, because there is no local hobby shop that carries what I want at prices I am willing to pay (especially in O gauge)--simple as that.

But a couple of weeks ago I "discovered" that there's an authorized LGB dealer about a 40-minute drive from my home. Since LGB is one of my favorites (among other brands and scales), I paid them a visit. Walked out of the store that day with an LGB trolley that I could have purchased on-line or via a phone call for about $30 less. But in this case I had found a relatively local store (pleasant drive) that was neat, clean, inviting, well stocked, and staffed by personable, knowledgeable, and helpful people. I do not mind paying a bit extra for that kind of thing, and will definitely be returning to that establishment for subsequent purchases. And, even more importantly from their perspective, I will direct others to their establishment, including my brother-in-law who is another LGB enthusiast. You can be sure that we'll be paying that store a call on his next visit to the area.

Yes, I could have picked up the phone and saved myself some bucks, but when it's possible to do so, I generally prefer to frequent local establishments and to keep the money flowing in my local economy.

[rtraincollector]

Well It looks like we all are sinning if thats the case but the bottom line is this you get t\better price normally on line even after shipping yes you have to wait 3 days to 2 weeks to get it but is getting it now worth paying extra depends. Most feel not. Service and parts for us self fixers in most cases I can get better prices for parts also on line. ( ie for O gauge item traintender.com ) The real reason for decrease seeing of trains to the public is not hobby shops but what ever happened to deparment stores having layouts around christmas. it took up to much if there precious space that they could put 10 more toys out there for sale sorry getting on another topic there lol anyway we all just about do it and your biggest hobby shops know it and take avantage of it.

[FJ and G]

thanks for the absolution

from your responses, I gather, that it is good to shop for the best prices, whether online or in stores and that secondly, given a choice of equally priced items, by all means, support your hobby shop

one further question. how is it that online sales are lower in price than the local hobby store. Is it because they deal in greater volume by the simple fact that they are available online?

i do, by way of admission, get cold feet when i walk into a hobby store and everything is MSRP, while online, there are discounts up to 20 or even 30 % (not that there are those discounts in hobby stores, but far fewer than online)

and one last (important?) question.

Is it just toy trains that are cheaper online or is it basically every toy (if I can call them that), such as die-cast cars, and other stuff. In other words are toy trains online bargains an exception to the rule?

[Anonymous]

"one further question. how is it that online sales are lower in price than the local hobby store."
----------------------

A very simple question to answer in one word: Overhead!

Most storefront dealers have a whole lot of overhead to conted with--lease, utilities, hired help, taxes, and so forth--while many or most on-line dealers do not, at least not to the degree that a brick-and-mortar store owner does.

And, yes, just about everything and anything--toys or anything else--can be found cheaper on the Internet than in most retail stores.

[underworld]

I buy whatever, whenever, wherever. I buy a bit online....but also at stores. One store that I go to gives very good discounts. Most of the stuff he has to order but it is usually at a substantial savings over regular retail. I also buy a bit at shows......some used but there is usually some new there too......sometimes things I haven't seen in stores or online yet. I don't thiink that there is a right or wrong answer to this one.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[brianel027]

Dave, it doesn't matter what you are selling. The basic principles of retailing and wholesale are the same. Any retail operation, be it on-line, mailorder or store front has to factor in their costs of operation in pricing their products. No question that larger operations have more of an advantage when dealing with their distributor or wholesaler. If they are able to buy more product and pay for it up front, then their actual cost of obtaining merchandise is going to be less.

Of course, there's a big difference between our train hobby products and items like CD players, DVD's, and other consumer electronics, etc. Far more people are buying those other items than are buying trains. Whereas an effective tool for selling train sets is an operating display layout, you don't need to go to such trouble or occupy valuable retail space to sell things like DVD's.

On average (and there are some variables) the wholesale level on trains for the general retailer is around 25-30% off list. That's not a very big margin unless you have a shop or business that sells something other than trains. Bear in mind (in defense of small shops) that it is literally impossible today for a small operation to have a complete stock of everything that is being manufactured today. The three big 3-rail train companies (Lionel, MTH, K-Line) each have catalogs of over 100 pages. Any retailer will tell you that once you have something in stock on the shelf, you need to move it out the door fairly quickly, otherwise you loose your profit margin and can even end up losing more on it. It can acutally end up costing you money to keep some inventory on the shelf. Also factor in the "blowouts." Samller businesses don't get dibs at getting the reduced prices. So when "X" train product is advertised in the train mag at 50% off list price, that small dealer is now going to have to wait for a buyer who is unware of that reduced price (not many these days) or is more than likely going to take a bath on any of those items he has in stock that are advertised as blowouts elsewhere.

I'm not defending small dealers who are grouchy old cranks. We've all been to places like that. They don't even greet you when you come in their door, and they act like you are a bother to them. They deserve to loose your business to someone else. But I am saying it is difficult today for any small train retailer to make a go at it... even with the internet. How many on line retailers can the hobby actually support? And besides, the established big places are going to still have the best prices regardless.

Also bear in mind that the businesses who are distributors or wholesalers (as well as retailers) are getting their product at somewhere between 50-60% off the list price. That's a big difference over what the average guy gets. It means they can discount prices, still make money and undercut many smaller businesses in price. Of course, the distributors and wholesalers are the ones who are placing the pre-orders and are the ones who are putting down money up front and paying for larger quantities of product. The train manufacturers are anxious for their money these days too.

Hey this is just the way it is. I'm not up or down on it. Most of us experienced train buyers can look at mail order ads and recognize the items we want just by the product numbers. We don't need to see the manufacturer name to know that 6-xxxx is a Lionel product and 20-xxxx or 30-xxxxx are MTH products.

Where I think the mailorder end of the business hurts the hobby, is in introducing the hobby to beginners. But that doesn't have to necessarily be the case either, but that's a whole new topic which goes back to some form of promotion or advertising.

[Anonymous]

Don't recall anyone mentioning sales tax. If I order out of NY that's 8 1/2% savings. Plus many places ship free with a min. order.
Paul

[Anonymous]

Why should anyone feel guilty about buying online? Many of these online dealers also have storefront shops like Charles Ro, Justrains, Davis etc.

[brianel027]

Well remember, that by the requirements of the various companies, mailorder dealers are first required to have a store front operation. Each company has its' own rules as to what the shop should look like and how product is to be displayed. Only Lionel, to my knowledge - has a clause (the so-called grandfather clause) allowing older long-term dealers to be exempt from some of the newer regulations that a newer dealer must adhere to.

Once you established with a store front, there isn't really any thing stopping someone from expanding the business to mailorder or on-line sales - except the initial capital investment to be able to advertise this and to have the inventory on hand. Depending on your distributor, you may be able to advertise the product and then as it is ordered and sold to a customer, get that product on short notice from your distributor.

One other point (though it is slightly off-topic, but does relate) that hasn't been mentioned is that the US economy is in another state of transition. As so many once better paying manufacturing jobs (and now even some higher tech jobs like computer programming) have moved off shore, many Americans are having to start over career-wise and are accepting jobs that now that chances are don't pay as well.

At at UAW meeting years ago, I had the chance to rub shoulders with some folks that acutally worked for the Lionel plant in Michigan. I would be willing to bet that many of those former Lionel employees today are NOT making the good money they made before.

I don't know if there are any real statistics, but many of the train guys I have met and known over the years were not doctors or lawyers: they were ordinary guys with decent paying manufacturing jobs involving tooling, construction, assembly or electrical work. Our train hobby is a natural offshoot for recreation involving the skills many guys used at work: these skills could also be applied to the hobby.

It is though pretty well accepted that the base of the hobby today is mostly older men. As these guys face decreasing incomes along with rising costs of living (medical, taxes, heat, gas) it would be only natural that we are going to look for the very best prices out available on these non-essential train purchases.

So not only is the economy driving people to be bargain conscious, but there is also another aspect of the train hobby that is changing: small dealers may not be able to make the repairs on products the way they once did. At one time, a dealer could have probably repaired your trains right at his shop. Today, that may not always be the case. The parts to make repairs may not even be available to the dealer. As with many other consumer goods, the train business has moved towards defective merchandise and repair work going back to the company headquarters. It's entirely possible that the consumer who sends in a product for service actually gets sent another one rather than getting the actual repair.

What I'm saying is that things are changing and not always in favor of the small business dealer. It's great when you find a local dealer who has the products you want and can offer some kind of discount pricing and some service. I know when I have found dealers like that, I like to support them. I've become good friends with some.

But more and more, things are leaning towards the larger mail order venues. But even those businesses need to follow some rules of courtesy and good service. That why places like Ma and Pa Junction and JusTrains have done so well: because they can offer a discounted price plus a courteous, knowledgable voice on the other end of the phone.

Again, the only sector of the market I see being hurt by this trend, is the outreach to new customers. I'm sure that many of the new customers that are getting started into the hobby now are being brought in by another more established modeler or have seen an operating display at a train show or exhibit.

But folks are more internet savy than ever. If the companies get their web sites friendly to newcomers with useful info and links (again, Thor's site deserves mention here as being one of the VERY best for newcomers), this might not be a problem either.

Just my 2.65 cents.

[Anonymous]

All good points, Brian!

This hobby faces the same changing demographics that all such leisure pursuits are facing. And I must say that, overall, the industry isn't doing a particularly good job of staying ahead of the problem. They tend, in my opinion, to be more reactive than proactive.

[Anonymous]

Marty at MA and PA Jct. operates out of his garage so he has no storefront and overhead. Many of the so called "dealers" on ebay and SVC sell the same way. How do they get their product?

[siberianmo]

QUOTE: rampage84 Posted: 30 Apr 2005, 13:06:05
Don't recall anyone mentioning sales tax. If I order out of NY that's 8 1/2% savings. Plus many places ship free with a min. order.
Paul

Good point ... but - check out my post on page one of this thread.
It was mentioned ..........

[brianel027]

Ted, Williams may have different rules, so I can't comment on that one. I do know the big 3 companies have very specific requirements about being a dealer.

But at the same time, I can tell you with some honestly that there are reductions and blowouts made available to the public that are well below the normal legitimate wholesale prices. There is certainly nothing to stop someone from buying a selection of blowout items, and then attempting to resell them. Nor is there anything to prevent someone from buying out used collections: going to sales, auctions, etc. and then supplementing the "used" inventory with some new items.

Also there was a time when dealer requirements were not so rigid. I can remember going into this guy's house and through his kitchen to get to the basement where he had his shop. And during the 1970's I can remember buying a lot of Lionel trains in a shop that was in a guy's garage. There was a time when businesses like hardware, appliance, television and radio shops sold American Flyer, MARX and Lionel Trains. Because the trains were pretty much a "seasonal" item. Selling trains helped to supplement the store's other main product lines and helped to attract more customers into the shop.

I think some of the dealer requirements, rules and regulations, while trying to protect the various companies' images and product lines, have actually hurt the hobby. With any kind of merchandise line, the more places people can find and purchase the product, the more you are likely to sell.

Again, I can't comment on Marty's circumstances, other than he by all accounts is a very reputable dealer who wants to make his customers happy. I think you'd be surprised to find how many train dealers cannot make a living from selling trains alone and have to either have another job themselves, or have a full-time working wife. Matter of fact, I could name several dealers in that situation.

Running trains is one thing. Selling them is another, and retailing them is more a labor of love than most folks are really aware of.

[Anonymous]

I don't think so, you have toshop where it is best for you. I am lucky to have Just Trains close by, so i get great prices when i want them. However i also order from a friend who runs a small military model shop. I pay just a bit more than mail order (example, 2 books, 3 models where 58.00, i would have paid 52.00 on line with shipping) But he allows me to open and examine any model i care to before i buy it, and that to me, plus his friendly attitude is worht supporting.
Bill

[tdetmer]

Like Underworld I buy a little whenever, wherever and so forth. As an S Gauger, I've tried to buy when I can at my local hobby shops just because I like to support local shops, even though I'm not against on-line commerce. The problem for S Gaugers has been that local shops don't and haven't for decades supported S gauge in a meaningful way (with a few exceptions - my closest shop with S gauge is over 90 miles away). So I get forced into buying on-line or at train shows. I'd love for my local shops to carry S gauge but they tell me it doesn't pay so it's a vicious circle.

More and more S gauge has become an on-line product with specialized outlets like Charles Ro that also have on-line and mail order business to help them. Those outlets don't rely on walk-in business alone. I guess it's the changing nature of retail generally, although HO trains may be able to do more locally than S gauge can do. So I guess there are some differences between what different gauges have available and S gauge operator's and collector's are forced into a specialized market that is conducted more on-line, regardless of whether they would like to support local shops. [sigh]

Tom