Compatability of MTH DCS & pre-Odyssey Lionel

[Anonymous]

To all of you technical experts out there...

I'm sure some of you have experienced compatability problems between the MTH DCS/Proto 2.0 system and Lionel locomotives which do not have the Odyssey speed control system. I currently have both the MTH DCS Track Interface Unit and the Lionel TMCC systems hooked up to two out of three loops on my layout (the third loop is not connected to the two MTH loops, it only has Lionel's TMCC, and its own separate transformer, plugged into entirely separate wall outlet from the first two MTH loops). Here's the two problems I'm experiencing:

PROBLEM #1:

The MTH 2.0 locomotives and Lionel locomotives that do have Odyssey run fine on the MTH loops when both of these systems are hooked up. However, I have a Lionel Class A 2-6-6-4 and K-Line E-8's which do NOT respond if the MTH TIU is hooked up to the layout (both of these locomotives have TMCC but NOT the Odyssey speed control system, and both run fine on the MTH loops when I disconnect the MTH track interface unit and use only the TMCC command base).

I am not aware of any kind of software or hardware "fix" for this problem. I therefore tried to have two loops of track which share a Lionel ZW and which do have both the MTH and Lionel systems hooked up, and a third loop of track (which is not attached to the other two) which has its own, separate transformer (and which is plugged into a separate wall outlet) and only has Lionel TMCC attached (to run the Class A and E-8's). HOWEVER, I then encountered problem #2:

PROBLEM #2:

After experiencing problem #1, I tried to keep the two MTH loops physically and electrically isolated from each other. However, it seems that the first TMCC command base attached to the two MTH loops and the second TMCC command base attached to the third loop began "fighting" with each other, even though the only "connection" between the two command bases is the fact they both receive power from wall outlets in the same room of the house. Specifically, my Lionel Odyssey locomotives on the two MTH tracks did not respond well while the second TMCC command base on the third loop was connected (?!?!?!?), However, once I disconnected the second TMCC command base from the third loop, all locomotives ran fine on the MTH loops.

Is anyone aware of a "fix" which would allow me to run all locomotives without signal problems, whether equipped with Odyssey or not? Are the newer Lionel command bases TPC 300 or TPC 400 less susceptible to "fighting" with each other?

Everyone's feedback is greatly appreciated!!

[nblum]

Firstly, I'd forget about the second command base. Only one is needed, and as you may have discovered, having two can cause problems.. Run a single wire from one command base to each of the loops where you run TMCC locos. That may well solve your problems.

[Anonymous]

Thanks - I'll give that a try.

[ChiefEagles]

Neil is right. Can not run but one command base with DCS. Just read an article on that. No matter how many TIU's you have, use only one command base.

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone - unfortunately, I tried this with unsuccessful results. As suggested, I attached only one TMCC comand base for all three loops - the command base is attached to transformer #1 and the MTH TIU for track loops 1 & 2, and the same command base is also attached to transformer #2 for track loop #3 (I do not have the MTH TIU attached to transformer #2, nor to loop 3). The non-Odyssey equipped locomotives again did not run under these conditions. However, all I had to do was disconnect the wire between the single TMCC Command base and transformer #1 (transformer #1 is attached to the MTH TIU), and lo-and-behold, the Class A and E-8 ran just fine. (Once again, the TIU and the TMCC had to be completely isolated from each other for these non-Odyssey locmotives to work - even under my original wiring scenario, simply having the TIU (thru transformer #1) and TMCC (thru transformer #2) plugged into separate wall outlets in the same room STILL prevented the non-Odyssey locomotives from responding to signals from my remote control - by merely unplugging the transformer connected to the TIU, the locomotives ran perfectly and responded to every command I sent).

Unless I can try something else, it appears that MTH's DCS/TIU is not compatable with non-Odyssey equipped TMCC Lionel locomotives (unless you're content with sporadic, unpredictable operation at best, or no signal response whatsoever at worst). On my layout, any time the MTH TIU and the TMCC command base were attached in any fashion whatsoever, these problems have always occurred. (I've heard rumors that the MTH signals and Lionel signals actually cancel each other out under various circumstances - my experiments today certainly do nothing to dispell that rumor).

Please don't misunderstand these comments as being unappreciative of all of your help - I'm open minded enough to try any alternative wiring plans that anyone can come up with. The solution may be to have a toggle switch attached to the TIU such that it can be electrically bypassed any time the non-Odyssey locomotives are running (which would mean I cannot run any of my MTH locomotives while the Class A or E-8's are running - but keeping things in perspective, life could certainly present far worse problems than these...

[nblum]

Suggest running the wire from the command base directly to one of the outside rails of each loop, NOT to the transformer post or TIU post. It doesn't matter which outside rail or where on the loop, just not to the transformer or TIU. Something at the transformer or TIU may be attenuating the signal or just not passing it through.

And not to belabor a point made continuously, are you sure that your wall outlets have a good ground connection? It may be that the ground is relatively ineffective and thus the TMCC signal strength is marginal, particularly when connected through another device.

I don't believe there is any real evidence that the DCS signal interferes with the TMCC signal. There are, however, a lot of older houses with ungrounded or poorly grounded outlets. Good luck.

[Anonymous]

Mr. Frank,

Neil is right-check your ground and track connections.

Operation of TMCC (both pre-Odyssey and Odyssey) and DCS should be rock-solid.

I run TMCC and DCS on the same track at the same time and DCS has never interfered with TMCC. I have seen a couple of TMCC locomotives whose presence on the track afects DCS, but never the other way around. The only time I have ever had TMCC fail to work properly was when the ground was inadequate (although it appeared to be alright when tested with one of those Home Depot ground LED ground testers).

One Lionel Command Base per layout is the correct number as others have mentioned. Even the AGHRS layout, which is very, very large, has only one Command Base.

Both the TMCC and DCS signals are present (on) all the time at the club layout (AGHRS), our large demo layout (25' x 25'), our small demo layout (13' x 20') and the really small loop of track here on the office floor. No problems with running anything TMCC or DCS.

I have run some very early Lionel TMCC (pre-pre-Odyssey, open field A/C motors, etc.) and it all runs fine in the presence of the DCS signal. There were some issues where Odyssey equipped locomotives reportedly did not run properly with the first versions of DCS software, but that appears to be the opposite problem (long since corrected).

Are you using the Cab-1 or the DCS Handheld to control your TMCC locomotives? I use only the DCS Handheld, but the Cab-1 works perfectly also.

[Anonymous]

Gentlemen, I believe we may have missed a key point. In his first post Frank made a commit about the TPC 300 and TPC 400 "Command Bases". It may be possible that he has confused these with the actual Command Base. If this is the case it would explain many of the problems he is having.

Frank, I have looked back through this thread several times and have not found any mention of your power source other than simply transformer. The easisy way is to power your loops using transformers that have variable outputs. On the DCS TIU there are two types of inputs, Fixed and Variable. What ever voltage you apply to the Fixed input will be available at the Fixed output. That is , if you connect the variable output of a transformer to the fixed input of the TIU and vary the voltage out of the transformer then the output of the fixed output will also vary. This is a quick way to run conventional trains.

The Variable inputs on the TIU are used by the TIU to vary the output voltage with the DCS controller. If you are using transformers that do not have a variable output such as the Lionel Powermasters this is where you would connect them to get a variable output from the DCS TIU.

The TMCC command base (Has only one terminal with a thumb screw labeled "Track" and "U" ) is connect to the black output terminals of the DCS TIU that you have connect to your track.

If you power your third loop from another transformer and do not have it connected to the first loops in any way then simply connect the output terminal of the command base to the outside rails of that loop.

[Anonymous]

I have both DCS & TMCC connected to my two loop & two siding layout. I run each of the sidings & loops with one each of the operating throttles of the ZW(the new version) connected through each of the "Hook-Ups" of the TIU. I have the TMCC command base hooked up through the required ground connection on the ZW. Prior to "Turning-On" the TMCC I had no problem with operating the DCS PS-2 locomotives(even TMCC with the base unit that is attached, according to the instructions/I have an extra TMCC base unit hooked up with the DCS TIU.

Should I hook-up the TMCC Ground Connection straight to the outside 3rd rail of the layout????? (In stepping back, when I activated the TMCC Cab-1 unit I received a code 55 on the LED Screen of the DCS Hand Held Unit).

Final thought-question: Is there an easy way to operate both TMCC & DCS on a very plain High-Rail Layout?????????

Nels Kinnerup

[Anonymous]

a) The signals used by DCS and TMCC are totally seperate. They do not interfere/collide/whatever. You need to connect the output terminal of the command base to the OUTER rails of the layout. The Command Base wall wart transformer has a three prong plug that needs to be connected to an earth grounded outlet to establish a ground plane to reflect the TMCC track signal.

b) The DCS system can not control TPC's or Powermasters. The Comand Base to DCS TIU cable will block the serial signal and the DCS software can not address PowerMasters (these are only addressed as TRain/TRacks).

c) If you want to use a modern ZW as a power source for DCS, please refer to the ZW's owner manual regarding control of a ZW in a command environment. Out of the box the ZW has a few peculiarities when used with a Command Base.

[Anonymous]

This might not be your problem, but here is something else to consider. Are you powering your loops with the TIU Variable channels? If the answer is "yes," when you power up the tracks with the DCS Remote, are you scrolling up the power to something less than a full 22 volts? If so, scroll your Variable output up to 22 volts and try your non-Odyssey engines again.

I have two non-Odyssey TMCC engines that operated eratically after I added DCS to my layout. I initially thought that the DCS signal was somehow interfering with the TMCC signal, but that was not the case. The problem was the DCS Variable channels...they chop the transformer's sine-wave at any setting below a full 22 volts. Turning the Variable output up to a full 22 volts stopped the chopped sine-wave, and the engines operated normally.

Not all of my non-Odyssey engines have this "sensitivity to chopped sine-waves" problem. I can't figure out why the two engines that do have this problem dislike chopped sine-waves (it's perplexing since they have the same electronics in them as my other non-Odyssey TMCC engines).