Lionel Prewar Celebration Series

[1688torpedo]

Hello Everyone! I hope one of the things that Lionel does is come out with a Prewar Celebration series consisiting of seperate sale Engines that have not been made in a long time.Not even by other Manufacturers. Engines such as the 226E,225E,224E,1688,1668,1689E,229,1664,1684,And various freight & Passenger cars such as the Litho 1600 series,The 600 series freight & Passenger Cars etc.Make them all mechanical,No Railsounds,TMCC,or any other electronics to fry out or quit on you. So how about it .? Is this on anybodys wish list.?........................Keith

[nblum]

I agree with the principle but in all probability would not buy them without at least TMCC, and preferably some sort of Railsounds. Perhaps this is why they haven't done this already, too much divided opinion about accurate replicas versus improved technology.

[Bob Keller]

I think that MTH has pretty much cornered this market with both traditional, and modern versions of standarg gauge items. They point out that the modern versions with can motors and sound sell better than the traditional versions.

[Dr. John]

Hey Bob! Got the hiccups? [;)]

[spankybird]

Maybe Bob is just trying to get his point across. [:O][:D][^]

[nblum]

There is some (undetermined) market for these prewar models that have the appropriate "Lionel" name on the side instead of the, to some, unpleasant and jarring reality of "MTH." :) Some of us don't want our Lionel replicas carrying the name of the company that has done their best to put Lionel out of business. Some of us simply want the models to look as much like Lionel's originals as possible. Etc.

Whether that market is big enough for Lionel to exploit, I don't know. However, I don't think MTH has cornered the market except for those who don't much care about having their "Lionel" replica with a big old "MTH" nameplate plastered along the side. Some of us do care. :)

I'm hoping at the very least, the next Century Club will address this issue for standard gauge and O tinplate. But it would be best if this revival were not restricted to that club unless the club is reasonably priced on an annual basis, IMO. Perhaps they could do these models by subscription/reservation only? Perhaps we'll find out at York or by this summer when the Century Club II will be virtually over. In any case, it would be nice to have Lionel back in the business of reproducing models from their own cherished history, even in a limited way.

[Bob Keller]

Jeepers. My computer froze when I hit post, and I didn't even think to check if it was posted till now. Never done that before!

The question is, of course, what is the market for Standard gauge. I personally wouldn't buy any ratty old pre-war train (even a Blue Comet) because (gasp) it isn't new. I don't have any link (emotional or as a student of model railroading) to the prewar brands, so I don't care if they say Lionel, Ives, or MTH on the side. I suspect many of the younger folk who are buying new Standard gauge (or prewar style O gauge tinplate) might also be brand neutral in this regard.

However, I thought Lionel's Standard gauge Vanderbilt and Hiawathas were great ideas.

One thing that it pretty clear, is that people who want prewar-style tinplate tend to want the old designs. A few years back I thought MTH's cataloging of a prewar-style O gauge 2-6-6-2, I believe using a Std. Ga.400E shell and O gauge tinplate innards was a great idea too, but it was too strange for the guys who wanted traditional styling, so it was nixed.

Standard gauge has sone amazing modern products in it, but it has been a niche in the toy train world and Lionel could probably get a better bang for its buck in more conventional areas.

[Chris F]

Keith's listings indicate interest in pre-war O-gauge rather than standard gauge.

One problem with reproductions of non-streamlined pre-war steamers like the 224/225/226/229/1664/1684 is that the castings were carried over into post-war production. Mold modifications over the years meant essentially the same castings were used well into the modern era. Other than the number, you could get a nearly-identical post-war or modern steamer that looked as good or better, cost less, and included smoke and knuckle couplers.

Lionel did reissue the "238E" (18052), a 4-6-2 Pennsy Torpedo with TMCC and RailSounds, in 1997. I don't know how well it sold; Lionel probably would look at demand for this unit when deciding whether or not to reissue another Torpedo.

The "toy" Vanderbilts (e.g., 1689E) could be prime candidates for a starter set, especially one designed around Disney characters (!).

[nblum]

Chris,

I seem to recall the Torpedo reproduction was considered overpriced by some and sold less well than hoped. Ultimately there were some blow out remainders if I remember correctly.

That having been said, the Vanderbilts would be a nice reproduction to start with.

[1688torpedo]

The Tin Litho 1600 series freight & passenger cars would be a nice starting point for Lionel as the ones at most train shows and shops usually are pretty well scratched or rusted. Every now and then you will see one or two of the litho cars in really nice shape at a show.But, Thats about it and if you can find a Prewar torpedo without a flawed casting(Broken rear steps,Zinc rot) Thats a plus for you if you enjoy this type of train.......................Keith

[Chris F]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum

I seem to recall the Torpedo reproduction was considered overpriced by some and sold less well than hoped. Ultimately there were some blow out remainders if I remember correctly.

The catalog MSRP was $699.95, and as part of the Heritage line, it wasn't discounted (at least not in the Charles Ro and Island Trains ads in the Dec. '97 CTT). Greenberg's 2000 price guide gives a value (new) of $630, which seems higher than pricing for other locos available with a discount. The 2005 guide shows a price of $540, while the LCCA eTrack listings vary from $399 to $519. IMO, the pricing decreases over time indicate relatively low demand. OTOH, there's a LN pre-war 238E listed on eTrack for $1095. [:-^]

[prewardude]

Of course prewar repros are on my wish-list! I think that Lionel probably will get around to doing some more eventually, but I can't see it happening until some of their legal issues are resolved. We must remember that Lionel has made repros of the Hellgate bridge, the 840 power station, and the 129 station and terrace in the last few years. The 2004 vol. 2 catalog was the first one since 1998 to have NO prewar items whatsoever listed. It seems as though they need to get their financial house in order before they venture too far outside of their primary market: modern hi-rail O gauge.

MTH has proven that there is a market for prewar, so I feel that Lionel will offer some more prewar items in time. We'll see.

Regards,
Clint