Like it or not, you are paying for Union Pacific

[Anonymous]

we want to see the rocelle web cam now now.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by eriktimmy

I love union pacific's the best and bnsf and santa fe's too.

[Anonymous]

I love union pacific's the best.

[webenda]

On 03 Mar 2005, 13:39:21, Allan Miller said, "The overall hobby--including those of us who do not model UP--should not be saddled with costs imposed by whimpy manufacturers who lack the guts to stand up to UP."

Back on Nov 18, 2004, 7:06:44 PM, Lionel Forum, Jerry Calabrese said, "UP is a complicated question and the short answer is that we will not make a deal that works in the short term but endangers the future of our ability to make product we have been making for a century."

And on Feb 16, 2005, 6:30:25 PM, Lionel Forum, Jerry Calabrese said, "We keep trying but UP isn't responding to our offers to talk. As much as we want to settle this with UP informally, we are never going to agree to a license that takes control of making trains out of our hobby's control."

I am surprised that no one mentioned that Lionel is not wimping out.

The Union Pacific Company says, (Licensing gives) "The opportunity to benefit from Union Pacific's increased investments in public awareness advertising and programs."
http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/modelrail.shtml

So, UP thinks that their names, symbols, heralds and advertising are worth something. Have you noticed in model railroad advertising the statement, "UP Licensed Product?" Doesn't that statement give the product more perceived value?

Atlas MRR Co. parrots some of UP's stated benefits for signing up with the Model Railroad Licensing Program. They must agree.
http://www.atlasrr.com/Notices/upagreement.htm

If the other model railroad manufacturers can sign the agreement, I do not see why Lionel cannot. I think that Lionel has gotten itself into too many binds at one time and that they should try harder to sign up with the Union Pacific licensing program. That would be one down...

As has been pointed out, charging more for UP models could be self defeating. It makes more sense to me to just absorb the cost of various licensing agreements.

Wayne

[FJ and G]

Steve,

I don't think anyone has ever made that very good point. But let's keep it a secret from the railroads. Shhhhh!

If they get the idea, BB the beagle said she will paint her own road names with her paws.

[Anonymous]

Hello All: Can't leave this one alone. What will happen when one of the Manufacture's get's exclusive right's on roadname's ? Let's say for 5 or ten year's. Don't think for a moment that those people haven't thought about it. Kind Regard's Steve

[FJ and G]

BB the beagle could star in her own cartoon.




No, wait, Snoopy already has that job.

[Jim Duda]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

Did you know that Betty Boop was originally a dog?

Oh No! Not a female dog, I hope!!!

[lionelsoni]

Did you know that Betty Boop was originally a dog?

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

SkyRay,

I love those old Betty Boop cartoons. She's my dream gal.

My favorite Boop toon was "Ride the Tiger."

Great body, but her head's too big for me.

Blondie - there's a woman!

[FJ and G]

SkyRay,

I love those old Betty Boop cartoons. She's my dream gal.

My favorite Boop toon was "Ride the Tiger."

[Anonymous]

"CSX is demanding payments from New York Central modelers. NYC fans do not get off scot free."
------------------------------

You sure about that? Not all licensing arrangements involve a payment of fees, you know. What is the CSX fee structure?

My feeling, again, is that if you are a fan of UP or any other road that wants to extort payment from toy manufacturers, YOU should pay for the royalty fee. The rest of us who are not interested in your particular road, for whatever reason, should not see those fees tacked onto the products we buy.

Purchase all the UP stuff you want--please--but be willing to pay the full freight.

[TurboOne]

Many here are seeing ads and are we not noticing. Trains.com has ads constantly. Those advertisers pay money and in turn we get to have a great website. And post. For free. Thank you advertisers. I also would bet that advertising on the train mags brings in more money than the subscribers do, as most mags have that happen. If not, the mag prices go up, and up and up.

Name recognition. It is the best item for sale in the country. Many names in the country used to mean something. Many have changed philosophies since the original founder has left. Even the mouse has changed with the new bosses. In business marketing there seems to be fine line between advertising and rip off. For every legit sports logo, there is the same item made illegally and sold. Go to a sports event and see outside the stadiums just up the street shirts, hats, and more at lower prices.

The bottom line is more of the price increase in MRR in general is due to small runs on trains. That is a bigger factor. Why are we not complaining that all the manufacturers are making limited run to keep the price up, and the long time train fans are slowly being priced out of trains. They are becoming collector prizes that people keep and sell later. Like baseball cards. Fun as a kid, now its a business for profit for many. Is it better? 10 years ago who would have thought you could buy a steam engine for $2000? With the prices going way up, and the technology getting better, shouldn't prices be coming down. In the electronics business, a video camera that was $2000 is outdone in a few years and the technology price drops as more are produced. Now you can buy a camera just like it for $399. How comes train technology isn't lower prices?

[2c]

Tim

[Anonymous]

Lots of philosophy here--I am overwhelmed. Most of you guys are not addressing Dave's original point. Is it fair to charge me extra for my ICRR steamer model because the company who produces it has to pay UP license fees? Let me vote NO.

On the advertising issue, If I were vacating (on vacation) around Kansas, I would go a couple of hundred miles out of my way to ride on the AT & SF. Now whether that is due to the song, or the fact that every toy train store I have ever been in has an AT & SF diesel streamliner on display, I don't know; but they definitely have brand recognition, which is what a major part of advertising is about. I have ridden the "Sunset Limited," "The Orange Blossom Special," and "The City of New Orleans." All of these rides were selected in place of other more convenient modes of transportation, and because I was familiar with the names. Can a railroad sustain itself on that kind of patronage--of course not, but it's additional revenue. If UP insists on license fees for models of its trains, then the people who buy those models should pay the fee, not someone who can care less about the UP. Anyone notice that about fifteen or twenty years ago Betty Boop (from the thirties) had a resurgence of popularity? It was because her copyright had run out and not been renewed, and Mickey Rat was being fractious about his image. Did Betty push Mickey out of the market? No, but she sure cut herself a much bigger slice than she had when she was copyrighted. The Mouse is a Louse.

[Anonymous]

CSX is demanding payments from New York Central modelers. NYC fans do not get off scot free.

[Jumijo]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

I'm not sure that any business decision has ever been made because someone saw a Union Pacific freight car on a model railroad layout. I doubt if a traffic manager has ever said "Well, we're only served by BNSF, but let's route via UP because I like that centerflow hopper on my son's layout," or some titain of industry has located a new factory on the UP because they had a UP F3 set as a kid.

Conversely, if a traffic manager didn't ship via the lowest rate/fastest route because he was beefed at UP's attitude toward model railroading, he'd probably lose his job, and rightly so.

I think this "advertising" angle is a myth. Railroads don't view their own rolling stock as advertising, so why should they look at 1:48, 1:64, or 1:87 cars as ads? If they thought their own 1:1 scale cars were rolling billboards, most freight cars wouldn't look so terrible.

I think UPs position is silly, but to say that they'll be hurt by guys NOT buying UP locomotives and freight cars due to the lost "free advertising," isn't based on the real world.

Personally, I'm glad I'm a New York Central fan.

It wasn't suggested that railroad business decisions were made based on something seen on a model railroad. But to say it's not a form of advertising isn't correct either. Any item with a logo or other identifying signature tied to a venture is advertising, pure and simple. For instance, I live in Massachusetts, and I never saw an ATSF passenger or freight train here. I have no reason to know the railroad's name at all, yet I do because I had toy trains as a child with their livery splashed all over it. You're a NYC "fan". Why? Do you live near it? Did your toy trains come in that livery? Do you like their cigar band logo? How and why do people become "fans" of a particular railroad company? In my case, my preferences were formed by what was on my toy trains. Up here, the Boston and Maine is THE railroad. Maine Central and the familiar blue B&M freight cars are frequently seen items in real consists. But those roadnames aren't seen very often on toys.

As for railroads not viewing their own rolling stock as advertising, I don't buy that. If that's true, why do they all have logos and slogans on them?! "Be Specific - ship UNION PACIFIC" has got to be one of the most famous slogans ever put on a freight car. I saw one once many moons ago as a child and never forgot it. I have to believe somewhere out there, at least a few business men sitting in traffic at crossings saw that same slogan and called UP when they needed something shipped. If logos or slogans on rolling stock isn't advertising, a bar code on a generic colored, unlabeled car would be just as effective for identifying who's is who's, right?

Jim

[Anonymous]

Hello All: Just a short footnote, Have you ever gone to let's just say a website that delivers adult content - and not give the URL - O Gaugeoverlord ? I did when I first got the computer 6 years ago, I figured it would have press releases & how well the President was doing. But guess what happened, it shows America's first Ladies.(Don't let your Kids go to that site). As it turned out someone was sharp enough to scoop up the rights for that site, Imagine the number of hits that site gets. I guess one of us should have sharp enough to broker the license rights to as many RR as possible, Then we would have had Lionel, MTH, K-Line Etc. by the ears. Kind Regards to all Steve

[brianel027]

Well the same could be said for the types of trains being made as for the issue of being charged more for model trains with the UP logo on them.

The trains are being made overseas, yet with scant few price reductions despite ridiculously lower labor and production costs. Even the non-scale traditionally sized trains keep going up in price even though the tooling/dies have been around for ages and have long since been paid for. I've long felt that the higher prices across the board on all train products are helping to subsidize to some extent, the vast amount of new product development on the scale end. This new tooling does not pay for itself with the first run, even though I'm also certain the emphasis of tooling longevity has now turned to the short-term instead of durability on the long-term.

Or to take Dave V.'s original thought one step further, the non-scale traditional train buyers are helping to pay for the cost of product development of trains they won't buy. Lionel has tooled up exactly one non-scale traditional car in the past decade, the Waffle Box Car.... I'm thankful for that. How many new scale sized cars have been tooled up in the same exact period? Maybe it's just the market and economics speaking here. But Lionel and others consistantly speak of strong sales on starter related items.

*** Maddox said before Lionel moved overseas, that Lionel couldn't compete with production in the states anymore. Labor costs were only part of the picture. What he really meant was that Lionel couldn't afford to do new tooling anymore. Notice too that the big rush of new product with brand new tooling came after Lionel moved all production to China.

But "selective pricing" has been around forever. Companies frequently lower the MSRP on something that is more expensive to produce by raising the MSRP on something that is cheaper to produce. It's their decision and the consumer can like it or lump it.

Or to put a different spin on this topic... The previous above comments on copyright logo issues are all valid. So the Union Pacific is exercising their rights or pushing their weight around, so to speak. They feel the use of their logo is worth some money and they want that money. Seems to me that Lionel for years has felt their trains are worth more than everyone else’s. Consider the K-Line Train-19 cars for $19.95, which includes very nice die-cast trucks. The most comparable Lionel product are their starter set cars with plastic trucks for $26.95. Since the cars are manufactured in the exact same Chinese facility, what makes one worth more than the other? The K-Line car is obviously a better bargain. Same could be said for comparing a Williams GP-9 to a basic starter Lionel GP-9, or a Williams Centercab switcher to one of the recent Lionel ones.

Lionel feels they can justify charging more for delivering less quality. Why? Because of their name certainly for one reason (maybe like the Union Pacific?). And another reason is that people are buying the cars at the price Lionel charges (though the blowouts would make one wonder). If they weren't, Lionel would have to reconsider the production of the cars or the pricing of them.

Ironic too, that with all this talk about licensing and the Union Pacific, that Lionel has a copyright on the orange and blue box. Or as a friend once said to me after buying some K-Line stuff, "I want to pay for a train car inside the box, not a higher price for less quality and a copyrighted color scheme on the outside of the box."

Lionel also has had an extensive merchandising program in recent years and I understand has been aggressive about going after companies using the Lionel name and logo without permission.

So railroad history is being rewritten right now as the Union Pacific meets Lionel at Promontory, Utah. And in the historic photograph capturing this new revised moment in railroad history, there aren't many railroad workers in the picture. But there is a whole load of very happy lawyers smiling.

The new "golden spike" has been hammered in, but this time not into the track but into the wallets of the model train consumers everywhere.

[GregM]

This subject has been discussed a number of times already and it isn't easy to remember everything that has been written about it. That said, I distinctly remember reading that UP does market toy trains with their logos.

I haven't bought much with UP on it since this licensing issue came to light. I am sure I'm in the minority, but what I have read doesn't suggest to me that UP is doing this strictly for copyright protection. The percentages are 3% of gross (not net) sales if paid on only sales of UP branded merchandise or .5% of total gross sales. The licensing agreement specifies that the royalties are to be paid in advance if the 3% option is selected. Half a percent of a company's gross sales based upon an audited financial statement is excessive and intrusive, in the case of a private enterprise, to me.

I hoped the industry would join together and fight this, but as can be seen in the catalogs and product announcements, several companies caved in and are passing along the costs to all of their customers. As an example, the latest Atlas O 40' steel reefer announcement lists four road names. Two are UP licensed products and one is a CSX licensed product. One is not a licensed product, but it costs the same as the licensed products. I'll get off the soap box now.

[Buckeye Riveter]

I believe you are going to see more and more aggressive protection of company's trademarks, logos, designs, etc. because of fraudulent copying of legitimate products over seas. If a company is not protecting their trademarks, logos and other forms of property in the US, I would assume that this would not be a plus if you had to go to a world trade organization to protest unscrupulous use of your property in a foreign country.

If I were a stockholder in a company where some third world company was using my company’s logo to unscrupulously sell like wares, I would be furious if the officers of my company didn’t pursue the theft. Needless to say, many of our retirement funds are invested everyday in major companies and the managers of those funds better be watching that these companies are protecting our money by protecting their property, both real and intellectual.

NASCAR, NHL, MLB, NHL, and the NBA all protect their logos and trademarks. The posting about John Deere is an excellent example of a company controlling their trademarks and name on toys. John Deere doesn’t make the toy tractors, just like the Union Pacific doesn’t make the toy trains. Caterpillar seems to follow the same track as John Deere.

If Union Pacific can't enforce their trademark rights with a toy train company headquartered in their own country, they would be hard pressed to have that trademark protected from the Ho Che Men Rickshaw and Wooden Bucket Company in eastern (put name of your favorite third world country here.). And as the old saying goes, better late than never. [soapbox]

BTW, isn't there some guy from MicroSoft going around and registering logos and trademarks that the companies failed to register? Or is this an urban legend? I remember hearing about it, but I don't recall reading a newspaper or magazine with the information. [?]

[Anonymous]

Hello All: Wemay not like it but the logo & trademark belongs to them, I have seen what can happen when you infringe on a trade mark, A children's day care had Disney character's on the sign, & guess what Mickey's lawyer showed up with a court order' take it down or you'll be paying large, it came down. On the other side the NHL TorontoMaple Leafs est 1931 never bothered to protect the Logo or trademark, This guy walked into the patent office , & registered the Name, Logo & trademark. That cost the Leaf's an undisclosed amt. of big $$$. As I said, we may not like it,but lets face it, the majority of train equipment is purchased by Adults(Big children according to my wife), Up wants a peice of what's theirs. I will end with one question, How many people have purchased a NFL, MLB,NHL, NBA or any other licensed product? Just remember about 20 -25% is going to those million dollar babies we watch. With respect & kind regard's to all Steve

[lionelsoni]

Railroads have not been allowed by the ICC to advertise on their cars since 1933, which is one reason why they don't view them as advertising. But, since they got out of the passenger business, they don't have much incentive to advertise to the general public, anyway. This is undoubtably why they don't see any advantage to themselves anymore in having their names on toy trains.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

I'm not sure that any business decision has ever been made because someone saw a Union Pacific freight car on a model railroad layout. I doubt if a traffic manager has ever said "Well, we're only served by BNSF, but let's route via UP because I like that centerflow hopper on my son's layout," or some titain of industry has located a new factory on the UP because they had a UP F3 set as a kid.

Conversely, if a traffic manager didn't ship via the lowest rate/fastest route because he was beefed at UP's attitude toward model railroading, he'd probably lose his job, and rightly so.

I think this "advertising" angle is a myth. Railroads don't view their own rolling stock as advertising, so why should they look at 1:48, 1:64, or 1:87 cars as ads? If they thought their own 1:1 scale cars were rolling billboards, most freight cars wouldn't look so terrible.

I think UPs position is silly, but to say that they'll be hurt by guys NOT buying UP locomotives and freight cars due to the lost "free advertising," isn't based on the real world.

Personally, I'm glad I'm a New York Central fan.

I agree. Having a UP car on your layout is not advertising.

The point of an ad is to reach a large audience & get them to buy whatever you're selling. No one ever said "Let me take a ride on a railroad" or shipped anything with a particular railroad just because it was on their layout or their friend's layout.

You model something because you like it, but it's not an advertisement.

And I'm sorry to say that I believe the UP is well within their rights to charge a royalty for the use of their logos & colors. Their licensing agreement may stink, but that's why people negotiate.

I mean, do you walk into a car dealership expecting to pay the MSRP?

Tony

[csxt30]

I'll tell ya what I don't want to see, is the rest of the RR's following UP. In my years on the RR, it seems whatever one RR does, the rest of them follow. Thanks, John

[palallin]

I'd say I'm glad I'm a MoPac fan, but the UP has that roadname tied up, too. In fact, according to the letter of the law, they also have my favorite-son RR--the Mississippi River and Bonne Terre--tied up, too. Of course, no manufacturer that I've ever been able to find even makes decals for the MR & BT, much less RTR equipment.

Yet another reason to model the Undec . . . [{:D] (Lest you think I'm kidding, MR did a feature article on the Undec 20 years ago or so, just like CTT did one on the Lionel Lines.)

[Bob Keller]

I'm not sure that any business decision has ever been made because someone saw a Union Pacific freight car on a model railroad layout. I doubt if a traffic manager has ever said "Well, we're only served by BNSF, but let's route via UP because I like that centerflow hopper on my son's layout," or some titain of industry has located a new factory on the UP because they had a UP F3 set as a kid.

Conversely, if a traffic manager didn't ship via the lowest rate/fastest route because he was beefed at UP's attitude toward model railroading, he'd probably lose his job, and rightly so.

I think this "advertising" angle is a myth. Railroads don't view their own rolling stock as advertising, so why should they look at 1:48, 1:64, or 1:87 cars as ads? If they thought their own 1:1 scale cars were rolling billboards, most freight cars wouldn't look so terrible.

I think UPs position is silly, but to say that they'll be hurt by guys NOT buying UP locomotives and freight cars due to the lost "free advertising," isn't based on the real world.

Personally, I'm glad I'm a New York Central fan.

[Anonymous]

My feeling is that UP fans should bear the burdon of any UP licensing fees in the form of a premium charged for UP or UP-related products. Identical products decorated for other roads should carry a lower price. The overall hobby--inclujding those of us who do not model UP--should not be saddled with costs imposed by whimpy manufacturers who lack the guts to stand up to UP.

[Anonymous]

Well this is a welcom discussion, am new to this Lionel and collecting and odley I started with
a 8002 UP and tender and have a few UP cars--so far at least to me on e-bay I don't see any price difference at all between Up and any of others. Not to say they won't go up as most mfg.'s do anyway regardless of "rights". I reckon if its too much people won't buy them--I know I wouldn't! I know one thing for sure--I am not about to buy anyones new car, suv, or anything they make and pay $20k and more--they can keep it! My limit is $12K-
The laws on "rights" and "infringements" to me have gone too far--You can't download music without paying a fee but at same time I can record off radio or tv and doesn't cost nothing ---
At the same time all the advertisers for NASCAR sponser vehicles for rights for a space on a particular auto just to advertise- to me a total reverse!
I think these mfg.'s should be proud to have their name on toy trains and other products w/out
trying to gouge people as most do, I really can't think of anything much today that is REALLY worth the price they ask or it is a cheap product to start with. No offense to UP or any other mfg., Just my opinion![:)][:)][:)]

[palallin]

Blame a consuming society that doesn't take intellectual property rights seriously and a manufacturing society (China) that revels in violating them, along with a lawyer-driven economy. There was a time when RRs paid Lionel to use their heralds.