2006 - 100th Anniversary of Standard Gauge

[prewardude]

For what it's worth guys, there is a Standard gauge blog on the Internet that you can find here: http://stdgauge.blogspot.com. That post by mrkuffler back on February 19th was posted by the guy that owns it. He's got himself a nice site, there.

Regards,
Clint

[Chris F]

Bill, if a reprint of Greenberg's Lionel Modern Era Diagrams and Parts Lists is out of the question, it's probably because the information is available on the Lionel website for free download. Olsen's Toy Trains has similar information covering Postwar trains, also in pdf format. It's the Prewar information, especially Standard Gauge, that's in short supply in print or on the web.

[Boxcar Bill]

I guess Greenburg's Lionel Modern Era part list is out of the question also ,since theirs not that many O-gaugers that could.

[Bob Keller]

I sure don't mean to be negative at all.

For the last five years or more, we've been shifting our focus toward running your trains, not just looking at them on a shelf. There isn't a problem with the operator books not selling, just the collector books. In fact there are two new operation oriented books coming out this year - Neil has done a book of original O gauge trackplans, and *** Teal has done a book on repairing modern era trains.

I think the magazine still has a great future, but with the focus being doing something with your trains, not just accumulating them, or hashing over which FA had the marbled plastic shell and which one had the clear plastic shell.

As for the public, we regularly poll our readers. I track stats for our surveys going back beyond 1996 when I joined the staff, so I think we've got a pretty good handle on the evolution of our readers and what they want.

I believe that in 2004 we did three paper polls, and I believe we did polls on the website or using addresses of people who have subscribed to the toy train e-newsletter three or four times in 2004 (we compare and contrast the results - which do differ). We've regularly done three polls a year since I've been with the magazine, we do a major poll every few years, and we've even gone to the extreme of surveying three tracks - newstand readers, subscribers, and hobbyshop buyers (again, comparing and contrasting the results). I think we do the best surveying in the hobby, and in fact several years back Lionel's Bob Grubba came to us to find out how deeply TrainMaster had penetrated the marketplace because they hadn't been doing any surveying on the subject. He later told me that once they began doing their own surveys of the subject, our results matched.

As for the future? I think I can safely say there will be no Marx HO, no Flyer HO, or Lionel HO in CTT in the near future.

As for the suggestion of placing the books in an electronic format, we on the magazine staff agree. This way the information won't be lost forever, except when something shows up to buy on eBay. We, however, don't run the books department. If someone wants to get started in this line of work, submit a proposal to our books folks and maybe you can contract to convert the material to an electronic form.

Great discussion!

[underworld]

Hi Bob,
palallin does have the right kind of idea. You could also offer it as a cd/dvd
for a reduced cost. We all know the cost of turning out a disc is negligible.
Otherwise AOL wouldn't give out hundreds of thousands or more per year.
I know you are missing out on a market.

underworld

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord
While there are always opportunities to recount the history of a given item (say 6464 boxcars), there just isn't a whole lot to be said that wasn't said in past years - certainly new information that would be of interest to more readers than a very narrow segment.

Sorry, Bob: I don't mean to be difficult, but that's contradictory. either there is or there is not something new to say. If so, new books will sell. If not, CTT will not continue to sell. You can't have it both ways: the market is the same.

In any case, we're not talking about a new book. We're talking about a reprint or, at most, a new edition needed to fill a gap in the supply. The need is self-evident: there are fewer copies of the books around than the market wants. You folks are the only ones who can fill it because you own the books.

Just to show that I'm trying to be helpful rather than argumentative, how about a subscription run? Use the poll that has been suggested: " Would you preorder (knowing that the run will be limited) X book for $39.95 (5,000 copy run)? $49.95 (4000 copy run)? $59.95 (3000 copy run)?" {Numbers used are merely to illustrate the concept.] Determine the number, get the $$$, then print.

[Anonymous]

Usually I don't speak negatively, but I must reply here.

Since there are only 100 of us that buy SG trains (and BTW I'm only 30), is it just us on this board that comment. Are the few 100 the same reason that Oguage forums have dedicated a whole section to us? I'd like a list of the 100 ebay buyers because darned if most of the purchases I've lost in the last year or won, they must have multiple user accounts.

I would strongly suggest you do what Lionel did recently. POLL YOUR PUBLIC. It may just be amazing how many more than 100 people there are.

[Bob Keller]

While there are always opportunities to recount the history of a given item (say 6464 boxcars), there just isn't a whole lot to be said that wasn't said in past years - certainly new information that would be of interest to more readers than a very narrow segment. Someone turns up a new prototype for a never produced postwar 6464 car, we'll cover it. Which version has the most rivets? Probably not.

And I'm not dusting off my resume - I do the product stuff and there will always be something new to buy!

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord
Generally speaking, everything has pretty much been said about these topics, and the market isn't as deep as one might think.

Gee, Bob: are you guys at CTT brushing up your resumes, then? If "everything has . . . been said," then CTT must be in deep doo-doo. What does the magazine do but say what has yet to be said?

No, 5000 people are not going to pay $300 for a copy, but 5000 probably will pay the going rate for new books @ $60. I can very rarely pay $300 for an engine, but that doesn't stop me (@ 40 years of age, BTW) from doing the best I can in SG (and Modern Era O, too). I'd give my eye-teeth for one of Dave McEntarfer's set books, but teeth are easier to come by than a wad of $50s. One $50 (and change), however, I can peel off pretty easily, and I'm certain I'm not alone.

All that said, I can see the economic point: I know what my students are paying for their textbooks. Still, the printing industry (in general) is as lucrative a racket for the big players as any Mafia don could wish for.

[nblum]

How about alternative media such as simply scanning them into files and printing CDs or DVDs on demand? The upfront cost may be higher but the marginal cost of producing each CD or DVD would be minimal. They could be kept in "print" indefinitely. I say this not knowing the hard costs of doing this, but thought it worth the suggestion. You could probably charge $40 to $75 per CD and get your investment back reasonably quickly, no?

As a PS, anyone who thinks significant numbers of generations X and Y are going to forsake video games, virtual reality and movies for prewar trains is living in a different reality than I am (father of two generation Y young adults). I'm sure there will always be a market, but it will remain a niche market. CTT and OGRR's joint circulation figures over the last five years show a a 10-20% drop, as do advertising pages. That should tell you something about the demographic realities of the marketplace. This is a boutique hobby and will get smaller, rather than bigger, is my guess, albeit slowly.

That having been said, I am delighted to anticipate CTT's look back to postwar toy train greatness in their special issue next month. One of the reasons CTT is still my favorite train magazine is that they continue to provide historical and nostalgia pieces alongside their coverage of layouts and new products. They are pretty much alone in this and I'm personally very grateful that it continues. Thanks to CTT for putting out a great publication.

[Bob Keller]

Alas the economics simply are not there for us to reprint them. Don't confuse the willingness of a few people (perhaps 100 eBay buyers in a year?) to pay astronomical prices for a book as evidence that there are thousands willing to do the same. If you print 5,000 copies of something and it takes 10 years to sell them all, you've lost money on the deal.

This isn't just the prewar area. Several years back we published the definitive book on postwar F3s. The book did okay. The second book in the series - on space and military trains - died. The third book in the series was nixed. Generally speaking, everything has pretty much been said about these topics, and the market isn't as deep as one might think.

[Anonymous]

Just for the record, all of the key Greenberg standard gauge reference materials on eBay for the last 6 months have sold over $100. That is because of scarcity.

Here's the thing: when they were published, venue options were limited. There were no CD Roms, PDF Files and publishing was essentially still in the dark ages. I would urge Kalmbach to consider republishing these, either in e-Book form or in paperback.

I know Kalmbach is not a company of unlimited resources, no company is. But if we look at all of the junk in a Barnes and Noble and make a comparison, these books have stood the test of time and are increasing in value, plus publishing has changed significantly. Perhaps it would be wise to poll the customer base and figure out what the demographic will buy and what kinds of volumes you could expect?

By the way, prewar is hardly in a decline. That could be said of the hobby as a whole. The reality is that the hobby is fairly diverse and rolls over almost every geographic border.

Look at how many different trains are offered on eBay every day and how many get sold. Look at how many people buy at auctions and look at the ridiculous prices. Look how many collectors attend York. Look how many trains just two manufacturers (Lionel and MTH) sell. The demographic is a constantly fluctuating global entity. It can definitely grow, especially as younger children discover how hollow technology (specifically computers and video games) can be.

Prewar is kind of special in the hobby because:

1) It's where we started.
2) These are toys that capture a significant era and time period.
3) They're just too damn fun to play with.

I have never seen a single collector, operator or high railer not stop at a prewar layout and gawk. Check out the standard gauge Carrail layout on the T&M video. Tell me there isn't a single person in our hobby or even outside of it that wouldn't give a couple of teeth to have that in their basement.

Just my 2 cents. Please reproduce these great books and keep the spirit of where we started alive.

M

[prewardude]

The amazing thing about the period of time that we're living in is that Standard gauge is probably stronger that it's been since the 1930s - due in large part to Mike Wolf's reproductions. Say what you want about the guy, but all aspects of this hobby have benefited because of him. I mean, they're even reproducing the Leland-Detroit monorail, for goodness sake! Who would have ever thought that would happen!

http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=10-1233-1

[Chris F]

Thanks for the reply, Bob. I'm looking forward to the coverage of Standard Gauge next year, but obviously disappointed that there won't be any reissues of the books.[sigh]

Your reply brought vague memory that this subject was covered relatively recently. I did a search and found a topic from Dec. 1. That topic led to another memory of a series of articles in early issues of CTT. The author indicated that interest in Prewar would decline as those who had these trains passed on. I guess those of us still interested in that period will have to rely on eBay. Who woulda thunk that books on collectible trains would eventually become collectibles, too?!

[Bob Keller]

While I do believe that we're planning some special coverage in the magazine, I don't believe we are going to produce new editions of any of the major reference books.

[Chris F]

Lionel introduced Standard Gauge trains in 1906. I'm not suggesting we get out our party hats right now, but I'm hoping our friends at Kalmbach will see this as a marketing opportunity to reissue the Greenberg Guides covering these trains![:)]