OK- I just did some close examining of my 2321 under good lighting. Everyone is right, that the roof does look a little different in shade or color from the paintwork on the sides- but furthermore, the paint along the sides is not actually consistently the same looking shade. It looks lighter in all the outlines for the simulated doors and grills along the sides, and anywhere the paint might be thinner. Also, the roof appears glossier/smoother than the sides. That said... I noted that the roof is not consistently the exact same shade either. It looks darker and less glossy towards the end of the long hood.I believe the gloss/non gloss may simply be a matter of handling- the paint has been burnished slightly wherever hands tend to come into contact with the paint. That would explain why the maroon stripe, right behind the railing, doesn't seem at all glossy. It is also a part of the loco I never took the time to dust, which may further add to the different appearence.Another key thing to note- when I inspect places the gray paint has been chipped away on the body of the loco, I can see the maroon paint layer as well if I look carefully. It's clearly more than one layer of paint. But where the maroon on the roof is chipped, it doesn't appear like there is another layer of paint underneath.I will add, the gray paint is so dirty that its shade also varies, depending how burnished it has become from handling. I really need to wash this poor thing somehow!! Eventually, eventually....Anyhow, this is my conclusion: For whatever reason, the roof paint on my unit just didn't stick. Who knows why. But it didn't. And so the maroon is showing. And for whatever reason, this paint looks different in color depending how thick it is, and it wasn't neccesarily applied perfectly evenly over the light gray plastic body. Is it a "rare, collectable maroon top 2321"? No. It's a gray-top unit with an unusual case of paint dandruff For what it's worth, changes in lighting and angle at which I look at it, affect how similarly the different areas of maroon paint match eachother.I feel like I've done my due dilligence here, and in the end it's about what I expected. As before, not planning to repaint. I'm happy with my engine, and the odd state of the roof paint is something I've gotten used to.-Ellie
For what it's worth here's what Tandem Associates has to say about the subject.
https://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_2321_diesel.htm
And The Train Station shop in Mountain Lakes NJ.
https://train-station.com/shop/PW-2321.html
I'll take another look tomorrow. I can't tell from looking at my picture, if it's a trick of the light, or something genuinely different. And I never really paid close attention to if the paint looked exactly the same on the sides and the roof, it never stood out to me. I will gladly report any and all findings!-Ellie
pennytrains Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but the traces of maroon on the roof don't appear to be a perfect match for the body striping. I think there's a strong possibility someone custom painted the roof to resemble the first (and usually quite valuable) run Trainmaster. It's doubtful that they were trying to do anything untoward, just a personal preference.
Hard to tell for sure from the photo, but the traces of maroon on the roof don't appear to be a perfect match for the body striping. I think there's a strong possibility someone custom painted the roof to resemble the first (and usually quite valuable) run Trainmaster. It's doubtful that they were trying to do anything untoward, just a personal preference.
I agree with becky, unless the paint on top was protected from fading because of the paint over, they do look to be a different shade from each other, the roof being a little darker.
Becky, I don't believe that to be the case. I can try to take more pictures tomorrow (if I don't forgit!). I'm not an expert. All the same, I feel reasonably confident that all of the paint is factory applied. The flaky gray paint on the roof looks no different to me from the gray paint on the body of the locomotive (yeah, gray paint on top of maroon on top of gray plastic), and frankly I'm not sure why someone would try to re-gray a "forged" piece- better to mark it as a partial repaint than spend a lot of time and effort to match the original gray, apply it over the maroon, and then STILL have a partial repaint, albeit more authentic to the original.Regardless, like many a train collector, I prefer the look of a maroon roof over a gray one... but I'd never be able to afford what people want for a postwar original. To me, it doesn't matter which version it "really" is. It occupies a special place in my collection, and it's not like I have any interest in selling it on (knock on wood) so there's no need to overthink it. Right?-Ellie
Same me, different spelling!
The thing I don't get, is why only the paint on the roof had been flaking off. None of the gray paint elsewhere on the locomotive has the issue. It's weird, but I'm not complaining. I've always preferred the look of the maroon roof. Again though, this is how it came to me. I thought it was interesting, having never seen this sort of thing before on a postwar item with a factory paint job. It was never going to be a "collector grade" item anyway, what with the battery damage, numerous small scuffs and chips to the paint, and the state of the railings. Me though? I'm an operator more than anything, and I find a bit of play wear to be charming, not an eyesore.-Ellie
Flintlock76 Grey paint on top of the maroon?
Grey paint on top of the maroon?
Maroon was the first color painted on these. The shells were then masked for gray.
Rob
Looks good!
Grey paint on top of the maroon? That's strange, it's the reverse of the usual, a grey body with maroon paint, on the early ones anyway.
Look at it this way, it's "weathered!"
Oh, yeah, leaky batteries were the bane of those post-wars!
OK, with much delay, here's a basic pic of my trusty ol' 2321!To me, she occupies that special place in the collection known as 'the locomotive that will pull anything like it was nothing'. I paid a pretty penny for her, but can't say I regret the purchase. Also yes, the patchy grey paint on the roof is on top of the maroone paint, for the most part. Some day I'll get the horn working again- the horn itself is fine, but I need a new relay, and I'll be making some sort of circuit to power the horn in place of a battery, both for convenience and because the battery holder was forever destroyed by a leaky battery somewhere in its life.-Ellie
Will have to post pics of my 2321... got her as a beater, and even then she cost me more than any other single piece I've ever purchased. But I had to have one. For some reason the gray paint on the roof (and only the roof) has been flaking off, leaving behind lovely maroone. It might bother some folks, but personally I'm okay with it. Maybe some day the rest of the gray will finally flake away and it'll look neat again!I had a manual for a 2321 that came with a collection of trains I bought... but there was no 2321 in the collection. Absolutely killed me! Buying that 2321 was rectifing that grave injustice to my toy train collection. Boy can that engine pull.-Ellie
Flintlock76 Nice Smokey! And it looks like you ran them through the washing machine so they'd be nice and shiny clean for their portraits!
Nice Smokey! And it looks like you ran them through the washing machine so they'd be nice and shiny clean for their portraits!
I have the Lionel RDG TrainMaster, but I'm working on it at the moment, so this isn't the optimum time for a photo.
Sounds like you did well!
I have a Lackawanna, 2321. Price was reasonable.
Guy showed up in the driveway and handed it to me.
Then asked if I wanted the rest. Rolling stock (two milk cars with platform included) and two milk crates of 031 track and a dozen 022 and 042 switches, plus buildings. Bumpers, couple of handcars and 50 trolleys.
I found another shell, repainting to NP demonstrator because everything else is NP. Put the Lackawanna in the box, on a shelf.
Always wanted one, but unwilling to pay the price. Oh, and no cracked screwholes.
TOC
Very cool!
well here are my four Williams trainmasters, 2 power and 2 dummy units
the numbers 60 & 75 have ERR TMCC added the other two are the dummy units
Being a Buckeye myself ,those are true thoughts!Really stings that Ohio State lost to Michigan the last 2 seasons!
Flintlock76 smokey1 I d to pull them out and take pics of all four of themhave both the yellow & blue and the yellow & black. just don't have pics at the moment, and there not easily obtainable. Hey, just do what I do and link some examples. Here you go. https://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_2331_diesel.htm Works for me.
smokey1
I d to pull them out and take pics of all four of themhave both the yellow & blue and the yellow & black. just don't have pics at the moment, and there not easily obtainable.
Hey, just do what I do and link some examples. Here you go.
https://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_2331_diesel.htm
Works for me.
I just need to pull them out and take pics of them all.
I have 2 under the train table in their boxes, and one on a display shelf between two train sets, and one in another room I use for storage. Then need to find somewhere to set them up. Probably should think of selling them. They are Williams and the power units I have installed TMCC and I think coil couplers.
Flintlock76 The blue and yellow (University of Michigan grads would call it blue and MAIZE!) on the Virginian Trainmaster does work well on the model!
The blue and yellow (University of Michigan grads would call it blue and MAIZE!) on the Virginian Trainmaster does work well on the model!
In Ohio mentioning either Michigan college can result in an outbreak of fight songs and choruses of Hang on Sloopy!
smokey1 I have both the yellow & blue and the yellow & black. just don't have pics at the moment, and there not easily obtainable.
I have both the yellow & blue and the yellow & black. just don't have pics at the moment, and there not easily obtainable.
pennytrains Don't have a Trainmaster. But I've always liked the Virginian in blue and yellow. Which is odd considering blue and orange is my favorite color.
Don't have a Trainmaster. But I've always liked the Virginian in blue and yellow. Which is odd considering blue and orange is my favorite color.
well, technically Orange is just an enrichment color of yellow. (yellow and red mixed correct?)
M636CIt also occurs to me that the CNJ model might have been able to use the paint masks of the black and yellow VGN scheme.
Good guess Peter, and that could very well be the case.
Historically the Jersey Central purchased their first Trainmasters in 1954 and then another batch in 1956 for a total of 13 and they were always in the Sea Green with Dulux Gold striping. Lionel's JC Trainmaster came out in 1956 and was only made for one year.
I've just read an article on the post-war Lionel GG1 and what a hassle it was for Lionel to do the "cats whisker" striping on the model, so maybe to save themselves the trouble prototypically striping a JC Trainmaster model they just went with the striking tangerine and blue paint scheme? I don't think we'll ever know at this point.
Wayne
Yes it is strange!
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