My Prewar Bassett Lowke(fairly certain its a late prewar model). LMS 4-4-0 Compound. Lithographed finish instead of the enamel of the postwar era along with the jogged handrails where the boiler transitions to the firebox are hallmarks of the prewar version of this engine according to my books. The key hole for the clockwork version shouldnt be there but then, nothing is definitive when it comes to toy trains, the factories did what they needed to sell models, especially as the war loomed large and larger. The real unique part is this is one of the more rare 20V AC powered versions, where as the majority were 12v DC or clockwork. Same basic motor but with a field winding instead of a magnet at the rear of the motor. Runs decent after a major cleaning, still dealing with some intermitten contact in the manual reverse contacts, its a very odd design and its being tempermental still. I even got the original box, a bit tatty and water stained, but considering its age the beating the UK took in WWII, its amazing these models are still here at all
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
Here is the rare original instruction booklet for this engine. Mike
Handsome loco. Nice find. Is it bigger than its American counterparts?
No, British engines are typically smaller in overall size in all directions other than track gauge as their "loading" gauge is smaller. Much tighter clearances as roads usually bridge over railways on old stone arch bridges built 100 years ago or more. This carries forward to even modern diesels and such. Things like autoracks and double stack cars are not used in the UK. She is a passenger 4-4-0, so tall drivers, many UK engines till the end of steam had the cylinders mounted inside the frames. Mike
fifedog Handsome loco. Nice find. Is it bigger than its American counterparts?
British "O" gauge models are built to a scale of 1:43.5 (exactly twice HO scale 1:87) while USA models are built to 1:48. The scale is sometimes called "7mm to the foot".
I think the Lionel Hall Class used in the Hogwarts Express is also 1:43.5 scale.
The prototype is the "Midland Compound" type dating to 1902 although the model represents those built after 1905. There were 245 of the prototype locomotive built and a similar model was made by Hornby in the 1930s. Large 4-4-0s were very popular at that time since the model could run on most model layouts while being very close to scale size. The father of one of my school friends had a clockwork Bassett-Lowke Midland Compound finished in British Railways black with red and grey lining, made during the 1950s.
Peter
Great find Mike! Beautiful engine!
I got lucky myself this past weekend. Found one of these:
https://auctions.ejsauction.com/auction-lot/lionel-2055-pennsylvania-4-6-2-locomotive-tender_1C94D7D826
Lionel's Hogwarts 4-6-0 (Olton Hall) looks like it is on steroids, next to American engines. It would be interesting to see the two side by side.
I have read that when Lionel commsioned the Hogwarts engine from their overseas builders. They were pleasently supprised when they ended up with a near scale version of the GWR Hall class engine. Hence, after the Hogwarts set came out, Lionel has done two GWR sets with the engine in proper GWR green as Kinlet Hall and Albert Hall. The tender is a bit overscale, but for a UK engine in the Lionel line up, its a downright bargain if one prices the stuff from ACE Trains. Now granted the ACE stuff is on another level of beautiful. I just put a deposit on a Hornby LNER Bramham Moor with 20v AC drive from the prewar era. For those wanting a brand new one, ACE is doing the Hornby 4-4-0 in all its variations for LNER, SR and GWR, along with LMS and the Bassett Lowke version in LMS. Looks to be made by ETS as it has the clutch drive they are known for that allows the model to freewheel when not powered. You can reserve one over on Station Masters Rooms website, they are not due till 2023 so plenty of time to save up. I am thinking of reserving either the LMS Hornby version or the Yorkshire running mate to my original Hornby. The reissue will NOT have the big light bulb thru the boiler face as on the original electric versions. Heck, if this year stays stable at my employer, I might reserve both!
The ACE website
https://www.acetrainslondon.com/new-projects/
Uses photographs of the original (clockwork) Hornby models. It can be seen that the Southern "L1" class is exactly the same model as the LMS Midland Compound except for the cab itself, except of course for the outside cylinders.
There was yet another version of this model offered by Hornby to special order, which was the LMS locomotive without the outside cylinders. There was a prototype for this. As well as the three cylinder compound known as class 4P, there was a two cylinder locomotive class 2P which was almost identical in appearance. It was one foot shorter overall, but nearly everything else was the same.
Hornby offered the LMS locomotive without the cylinders and connecting rods, to special order. It was painted in the same colours, but was not numbered. The 2P engines were numbered between 332 and 700 while the 4P compounds were numbered between 1000 and 1199 and in the 900s.
Apparently people remove the cylinders from some Compounds to produce the rarer 2P type.
They did the cylinder removal to the Bassett Lowke Compound as well. Eventually BL did the same thing and offered the 2P, but they are much harder to find that the Compound so to this very day, folks remove the cylinders and make their own blanking plates to turn one of them into a 2P. I hope to find an original BL 2P with the AC drive one of these days as well as the Duke of York with the optional electric drive. Mike
emdmike They did the cylinder removal to the Bassett Lowke Compound as well. Eventually BL did the same thing and offered the 2P, but they are much harder to find that the Compound so to this very day, folks remove the cylinders and make their own blanking plates to turn one of them into a 2P. I hope to find an original BL 2P with the AC drive one of these days as well as the Duke of York with the optional electric drive. Mike
The "Duke of York" was interesting in that it had no actual prototype.
It was introduced in 1927 and carried that number on the tender as the locomotive number. It appears to have been available in both red for the LMS and green for the LNER (both railways having had numbers on the tender rather than the locomotive in the early 1920s). It seems that this practice continued on the model into the 1930s, with the number representing the year of build by which time both the LMS and LNER had moved the locomotive numbers to the cab side.
The name is interesting. Prince Albert had only been given the title "Duke of York" in 1920, although his father George V had also had the title until he beame king.
Bassett Lowke produced another locomotive with no prototype, the "Prince Charles" (named after the present Prince of Wales) in the 1950s in British Railways colours. This was also an inside cyinder 4-4-0 similar to the "Duke of York" but of more modern appearance. In fact, the "Prince Charles" looked a lot like the former Great Central "Director" class but this dated back to the 1920s and these had names of less current interest.
And the whole DoY projecty was for BDV Cigs, kids got dad/uncle/grandpa to smoke themselves to death to get coupons for the model. The DoY and another smaller engine from Bing were in the catalog of things you could redeem with enough coupons from the packs of cigs you bought. I know where there is a green electric DoY but have only found clockwork LMS colored ones. Once I get my Hornby Bramham Moor in 20v paid off, I will keep my eyes open for a Crimson DoY. Im trying to keep to just models with 20V AC mechs in them. I know where to find a BL Flying Scotsman with that but it would never get around my cuves nor is it in the budget $$ wise. I will stick to the little 4-4-0, 0-6-0 and Moguls. I really need to get a 3 car rake of LMS/Midland Crimson and LNER Teak coaches for the engines I have.
emdmike And the whole DoY projecty was for BDV Cigs, kids got dad/uncle/grandpa to smoke themselves to death to get coupons for the model. The DoY and another smaller engine from Bing were in the catalog of things you could redeem with enough coupons from the packs of cigs you bought. I know where there is a green electric DoY but have only found clockwork LMS colored ones. Once I get my Hornby Bramham Moor in 20v paid off, I will keep my eyes open for a Crimson DoY. Im trying to keep to just models with 20V AC mechs in them. I know where to find a BL Flying Scotsman with that but it would never get around my cuves nor is it in the budget $$ wise. I will stick to the little 4-4-0, 0-6-0 and Moguls. I really need to get a 3 car rake of LMS/Midland Crimson and LNER Teak coaches for the engines I have.
The name of the locomotive was appropriate for a cigarette promotion, since George VI died of lung cancer in 1952 at the age of 57. He was Duke of York from 1920 until 1936. I believe he was a heavy smoker.
With so many locomotives obtained from smaller railways, the LMS did have two 4-4-0 locomotive types very similar to the Duke of York model, one from the Furness Railway and one from the North Staffordshire Railway. None had numbers matching the years of build of the Duke of York model.
You could consider getting some British Pullman cars, since these are not railway company specific. Hornby produced a number of these and I'd expect that Bassett Lowke did too. The LNER used more Pullman cars than the LMS but the LMS also used them.
I will track down coaches for both over the coming months. I am also looking for one of the gauge one live steam Moguls that BL did that are just like the O gauge ones but larger. If someone knows of one that might be for sale, please give me a heads up. I also have a Bowman 234 with tender in LMS colors with the original wood boxes that needs a new home, contact me off forum if interested. Mike
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