Just some frustration!
Lionel trains were (well built) toys for kids. I find them very unforgiving of “ok“ (not jeweler quality) trackwork. It seems mere insertion of one piece into another doesn’t assure optimal allignment of the mated pieces. And if you are using twin coil switch machines with gargraves or Ross turnouts, adjustment of the motor is tedious to make sure the points mate properly with the stock rails.
I have heard it said to test your handiwork, run your test train with loco pushing, but I have enough trouble if the loco is pulling!
Maybe I should just leave it to the kids! They must know something I don’t, beside computers.
I believe you hit upon one of ther reasons why Lionel trains have always been popular: they challenge the user, indiscriminate of age, gender or social status, with minor mechanical and electrical engineering problems to solve. They give you a feeling of accomplishment when you build a layout that runs as good as it looks. They're an educational toy in an electronic world that barely remembers they exist.
And I feel your pain. I spent the better part of a year trying to figure out how to level an O31 ovoid and a circle of Flyer track on a 4 by 6 board on the floor layout to get all of my locomotives on the two gauges to run without derailing.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Unforgiving? O ga. is VERY forgiving compared to, say, HO or, worse, N.
Sure, there can be issues, and Becky is very perceptive about the advantages they generate, but I will take O ga. any day over the alternatives.
I now have a very specific problem which apparently is not my problem; it has to do with the design of the number 1122 switch. I have a left-hand number 1122, and coming in to the straight branch of the switch are two 34 inch marx o27 curves. They are connected in such fashion as to parallel the curved branch of the switch so all tracks from both branches are going out to the left. I have found the same problem with two different 736 locomotives and two different 1122 left hand switches which I have exchanged in my arrangement in an effort to isolate my problem.
By the way, Let me say I have no problem running the Berks through the curved branch of any 1122s I have installed on my layout. In spite of their four in a row driving wheels, there is no problem. This problem is not because of the number of drive wheels and the length of the section of the loco
If you look at the guard rail for the straight branch of the 1122 switch, it is perhaps 21/2 inches long and molded with the ends at a lower height than center. Each segment might be perhaps 3/4 inches long. When the leading trucks of either 736 come in from the curve to the Straight branch, at the point the wheels get to that center higher section, they ride up on the guardrail center section and derail toward the curved branch. both Berks behave identically. Further I have removed one of the 1122 switches and installed a different one and get the identical behavior.
I have thought I might in someway modify a plastic gargraves guard rail and attempt to glue it on top of the lower leading end section of the 1122’s Molded guard rail as a way of retaining the leading wheels in the proper channels. I’m not sure I am enough of a craftsman to do this, and I’m not sure if this will work, even if I can do it.
I’m not sure whether or not installing a larger radius curve like 042s will help, and also, at first glance, I don’t believe I have room to make that alteration to my track layout.
At least one of the two Berkshire has just returned from being serviced, and I asked my very good repair guy to pay attention to the spring on the leading Wheels.
Any ideas?
You may be a victim of Lionel's typical use of too short a tongue on two-wheel pilot trucks. When the pilot-truck pivot is too far forward, the pivot moves too far to the outside of the curve, oversteering the truck. Put your locomotive at the point where it derails and see whether the truck's axle is at a right angle to the rails.
Bob Nelson
And if that is the case, what is my remedy?
Sorry. If that NOT the case, what is my remedy?
Not all screwed down and tested but Managed to fit in an o42 90° turn to replace 034 and rework slightly a parallel track thank you so much smaller space so I am hopeful
That's good news.
Although some folks have reported success with weights and stiffer springs on the pilot truck, the only sure cure for a steering geometry problem is to move the pivot, which should be about halfway between the middle of the drivers and the pilot truck, with a corresponding lengthening of the pilot-truck tongue. Unfortunately, that's a fairly invasive modification of the locomotive.
No way I am doing that modification. Seems I have made significant improvement by using longer radius curve coming into the 1122. Will
keep working that angle
Seems I cured my original problem, but a trip through the curved branch yields same problem. I’m gonna test with a 2046 and a 773 to see if Bob‘s comments about 2 wheel leading trucks being problematic play out with my average track-work. If the 2046 is ok, then I have to avoid the Berkshires and just look at them!
I have a shaker box of small hobby wood pieces. My Allegheny's front driving wheel kept "walking" over a certain curve. A small "shim" of wood (prob < 1/8"), under the outside of the curvature, was all that was needed to correct this matter. Just a slight super-elevation may be all you need.
I have checked Bob Nelson’s comments about the problems of Lionel two wheel leading trucks. My 2046 and 773 locos, which have four wheel leading trucks, run thru the 1122, curved branch or straight, with no problems (I continue to be amazed the 773 will do that!). On the other hand, the 736, with the two wheel leading truck, still will not run through the curved branch although the new track alignment has cured the original problem on the straight branch. If my layout used O22 switches, would that yield a complete solution? I may look further into that, but then I might create a new problem at the transition point from 027 track to the O gauge switch. Don’t want to trade one set of problems for another! Oh, well!
A Marx O34 turnout may be another possibility.
I find that I have to do something about the movable part of the frog in Marx turnouts. My solution is a 2-inch-long guardrail of curved O27-profile rail soldered to the curved stock rail opposite the frog. I pinched the ends of the guardrail railhead flat and bent the 3/8-inch-long flattened railhead and web away from the stock rail to create a tapered entryway. This also creates a space between the heads of the guardrail and the stock rail to get an iron between them to solder their flanges together.
I sense you are a better craftsman than I, so take a look at the 1122 and make some suggestions as to a mod on that unit-
Often overlooked is the front and rear truck springs which have typically long ago broken or worn out on Lionel locomotives. If you are unsure of the age of your truck springs replace them. I found my steam locos were derailing on switches often until I installed new springs wich decreased derailments dramticaly.
I have NOT found the solution to my poor track work; i have removed the problematic stretches--replaced an offending1122 switch with a Ross 072, and straightened out the approach route to avoid the problem Bob Nelson observes with Lionel two wheel pony trucks. But I did come across a video of a repaired 624 pushing a string of more recent (better trucks? lighter weight rolling stock?) cars backwards around a layout through 022 switches and o gauge curves. I cannot do that, and I don't know why. I have a NYC gondola from about 1955 that finds reason to derail.Further, if i have it coupled betwen a 2426w tender and a 6464 box car, and it is stopped on an 027 curve, when the train begins to move, it will tend to be pulled over to the inside. What can I do so that doesnt happen?
Is it possible that the front truck wheels are slightly too close together? Coming from the curved track to the straight side of the switch, the outside wheel is rubbing the outside rail, but if the wheels are too close together, the inside wheel would ride up on the guard rail. The wheels can be adjusted on the axle. Try spreading the wheels a tiny bit and see if the inside wheel goes where it is supposed to go.
Thnks i will look into that. Might pick up 1/32" there.
But I think my original point was I am not a tremendous craftsman, but i believe I am not terrible. Should you have to be very good to get these toys to run right? I had mentioned the train i saw wuth a 624 pushing 10-12 cars though 031 curves and switches. I can's do that without derailments. That makes switching operations a chore or worse. I try to remember to oil the trucks on a car which hasn't been run recently to reduce friction and resistance, but...
stuartmit Thnks i will look into that. Might pick up 1/32" there. But I think my original point was I am not a tremendous craftsman, but i believe I am not terrible. Should you have to be very good to get these toys to run right? I had mentioned the train i saw wuth a 624 pushing 10-12 cars though 031 curves and switches. I can's do that without derailments. That makes switching operations a chore or worse. I try to remember to oil the trucks on a car which hasn't been run recently to reduce friction and resistance, but...
But did that person have some weight in the cars to help keep them on the track? very possible. Where those cars of a heavier calibur than what you have?
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
You say you're not much of a craftsman. That's one of the things Model Railroading will do for you. Mechanical, soldering, electrical, problem solving.
On the 726/736 engine, and probably on 675/2025, 225E, 226e, all of those, this crops up.
Gauge is first thing you check. if you don't know just remove the truck (one shouldered screw) and hold the wheels against a set of flanged drivers. make them match. Small hammer works on the axle stub if too narrow.
While the truck is off, push down on the rivet head, see if there is any tension left on the spring.You can order new rivets and spring, cut the old one out, seat the properly oriented one with a center punch, lightly.
If the spring is intact, contact cement a shim of brass or even styrene on the rivet head rubbing plate on the bottom of the cylinder block. Try .020". You can always pry it off and clean the glue off if that doesn't work.
I obtained a pre-war 226E (boiler looks like a 726 with stack in proper place due to no smoke unit) that after unpacking and lubing, derailed on every switch.
Who knows where the previous owner got the wheels and axle from, not right, wheels loose enough gauge changed in 10 feet of running....but NO rivet and NO spring. Dug around, got wheels and axle, spring and rivet, goes through 3 or 4 iterations of GarGraves switches now.
If the spring is intact, what is the purpose ofthe .020 shim? just to build up vertical and and leave less rom for upward movement?
The shim adds a bit more tension. While postwar Lionel was far better then some of the modern made in PRC stuff as far as QC, it's worth checking, and it doesn't hurt to try. If you have some of that real thin double backed scotch tape, that will hold the shim.
Bottom line, not a universal problem.
I hate this forum software...when answering you can't go back and see all the posts.
I have had the issue, almost always spring or gauge, most likely gauge. I have some 675's with NO spring, and they track fine (done on purpose to clear a modification I do to all of them). Maybe a stick on weight.
If this was a class problem, everbody would be screaming, so we look at the basics first.
Gauge. Spring tension. There is generally enough slop on the shouldered screw to take up for any non-original twist in the truck frame. UNLESS somebody along the way lost the shouldered screw and stuck in a regular screw with no shoulder...or added washers. You never know.
I am guessing you have the cast truck. Not likely to have a bad twist without it breaking.
So, check gauge and spring, report back.
I have a 726, 736, and 226E, and none exhibit that issue, and nobody I know locally with any of those exhibits that.
That said, these ARE three numbered locomotives. That's 0. Four numbered are 027. Seems like you're using broader than 027 switches, so that's good. It's not the height of the rail, rather the curvature. Makes no nevermind on a lot of engines, especially if the same engine is available in both numbering series, like a 675/2025. But the Berks in postwar never came in 4 number series.
671/681 and the 027 2020, don't care, seems the wheelbase is short enough on drivers and those six wheel lead and trail trucks.
"All of the Berkshires that Lionel produced were designed to run on the standard O Gauge tubular track of the post war years and will not operate properly on the tighter curves of O27 Gauge track."
https://www.tandem-associates.com/lionel/lionel_trains_726_loco.htm
While you have the truck off, you can roll it through the switch by hand and see if anything catches.
3 digit numbers on the locos don't mean you can't run them on 027 switches, although it feels like an adventure the first time. My 773 doe snot give me the problem on the 1122 switches. But thanks for thoughtful comments. I will check, when my hobby shop reopens, if the survive--some old guys in an old shop--first advrtiser in MR, I believe--The Model Railroad Shoppe in Dunellen, NJ.
Ah, if you read what I posted, they do in some cases. I quoted. Long wheelbase steam with two wheel lead trucks....asking for derailment issues. The big issue is the position of the switch machine and overhang. I not only find several places that mention the incompatibility of the 726/736 on 027 switches, but recall it from discussions in the 50's.
You don't find anything wrong with gauge or tension spring, and it stil won't go through 027 (not 034) switches, think Sherlock Holmes.
Here's a test. Place your engine ony upside down wedged in towels. Take a couple of pieces of 027 curved track, lay them upside down on the wheels, see how close the lead truck is to the cylinders.
Then see if you have any rub marks on the cylinders after you remove the track.
Found several websites where folks claimed they have no issues with 726/736 on 027 TRACK....but they won't discuss switches.
Track isn't the problem. It can very well be forces on the lead truck and the geometry of the components in the switch.
I see you in another discussion, where some folks claim it works, other state specific switch numbers.
I remember when I got my 225E. 1952. Later was warned not to run it on 027. That was from dealers at the time. Wrong, but that was the deal. I think because the plate on the pickups said "0 gauge locomotive".
Bottom line: Yours won't go though 027 switches. Do we try to figure it out? Yeah, that's what we're doing here. I have absolutely zero 027 on the premesis, so can't check that here. I'd be looking at the angle of attack of the lead truck flanges in the curve. Does it go so far as to cause the edge of the flange to pick parts on the switch?
You can go to forums and have dozens of folks tell you it works. Obviously yours does not.
One more thing....does you lead truck have an oval hole for the shouldered screw or round? Oval hole allows the truck to kick around a bit on sharper curves.
And we are talking about a postwar 726/736, and not the later ones with RailSounds and such?
a surprising fact newly learned: a GG1 (just acquired one) will go through 1122 switches. Surprise me!
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