transformers

[Anonymous]

Thanks to everyone who responded above for their interesting and cogent posts.

I own a couple of ZW's, and on them the (U) posts seem to mean (and behave) like a "common." Inside the casing is a copper strap that connects all four (U) terminals. An ohmmeter placed across any two of them shows zero resistance, as one would expect, and also zero ohms when connected to the outer rails as instructed. This much is straightforward.

I also have two CW-80's, both pre 8/04. In another post which discussed the "quirkiness" of these devices, I went so far as to suggest putting one's meters away, because I hadn't been able to make any sense whatsoever of the readings I was getting from mine -- in volts or ohms, with power on or off -- even though each seems to run Lionel trains perfectly in conventional mode, postwar as well as relatively modern, and with and without RailSounds. In other words, mine work OK (knock wood!) but they continue to mystify me.

Therefore, I'm not sure that I want to try much electro-mechanical experimentation with my CW-80's. It seems unduly risky to the equipment, given an environment wherein a number of experienced forum members have compared theirs to boat anchors and/or consigned them permanently to the back of the closet.

I think I'm going to have to mull over this whole CW-80 thing a bit longer....

wolverine49

[lionelsoni]

Wolverine, I don't think I can help you with understanding the newer Lionel "transformers" (if that is their real name); but I'll give the ground problem a try.

First of all, let me define some terms. In electronics, there are three similar connections that often get confused with each other. They are "ground" ("earth" in England), "chassis", and "common".

"Common" means a connection among all the wires designated as "common". Its symbol is a triangle with the top side (usually) horizontal. There can be (but usually aren't) multiple commons, which may or may not be connected together, in a circuit, each identified by an additional symbol within the triangle.

"Chassis" means a connection to the frame or "chassis" of the equipment. Its symbol is a (usually) horizontal line with several parallel diagonal lines descending from it. You can see that a chassis connection is a kind of special version of a common connection, with the extra feature of being connected to the chassis.

"Ground" means a connection to the actual ground or planet Earth. Its symbol is the one with three (usually) horizontal lines decreasing in length from top to bottom. You can see that a ground connection is also a kind of special version of a common connection, with the extra feature of being connected to the earth.

The ground symbol can also be used for the frame of a vehicle, not necessarily actually connected to the earth, like the body of an airplane. But I and many others often speak also of the outside or stock rails of 3-rail track as "ground", in a sort of modeling sense, since the stock rails of a prototype electric railroad would normally be grounded.

Now we know that our trains require a voltage between the outside rails and the center rail in order to run. So we can declare (speaking in the loose modeling sense) that one side of the transformer winding(s) that power(s) the train, that is, the side that we connect to the outside rails, is grounded. As long as that is all that we are doing, it doesn't matter much which side we connect to which rails.

But, if we want to operate an accessory or a switch that we will power through an insulated outside rail, a "control" rail, the wheels and axles will act like a switch to connect the control rail to the other outside rails. Therefore some part of the accessory circuit is inevitably going to be grounded since it will include the grounded outside rails.

The most convenient part of the accessory circuit to ground is the accessory winding or voltage supply. With separate transformers or other supplies, this is done simply by connecting them together. When they are in the same box, the connection is usually already made inside the box. Most of the problems that folks have using these transformer accessory windings are in figuring out which side of the multiple windings have been connected together so that that internal connection can also be connected to the outside rails. Lionel has not made this any easier, since they have been about as inconsistent as possible in their labeling.

I believe that I have also read here that the CW80, if connected properly for operating switches and accessories, that is, with the internal common connection grounded externally to the outside rails, will be connected backwards for whistle and bell control. This would not have been a problem in postwar days, since the whistle relay could not distinguish between the two polarities of DC voltage that the whistle control would add to the track voltage. But modern locomotives can; so they misbehave when you get it backwards, as Lionel apparently has.

By the way, it is often said that transformers connected together to our outside-rail ground must be "phased", that is, connected so that the ungrounded sides of the windings have the same polarity. The only instance I know where this might be needed is when two track supplies are used in adjacent track sections with a train passing from one section to the other. This practice is a little risky, since significant difference in the voltage settings for the two sections can have the same effect, to a lesser degree, as having the transformers out of phase, that is, drawing excessive current.

For accessories, "phasing", or even using supplies of the same frequency is not necessary. In fact, there are good reasons for using DC for switches even though one uses AC for the trains, as I do.

[Chris F]

Lionel's instructions for modern O-22 turnouts specify a minimum of 9V and a maximum of 14V, while their instructions for postwar O-22 turnouts specify operation at 12-14V.

Just because Lionel describes a "fixed voltage terminal" for the O-22 turnout does not mean that you have to use a transformer's fixed voltage terminal. I'm using a Z transformer, which only has variable voltage outputs, to power my dozen O-22 turnouts. I simply set the output to 14V.

Your first step should be to search this forum for previous posts regarding problems with CW-80 transformers (e.g., those made in 8/04). If your CW-80 is working okay, why not try it? The B terminal of your CW-80 is factory-set at 12V (you may wi***o verify this with a volt-ohm meter).

Postwar transformers (ZW, Z, ZW, VW, SW, etc) are compatible with Railsounds. Only those with a "W" designation have a whistle controller, and none of them has a bell button. Modern transformers, including MRC's, generally have both whistle and bell buttons. Lionel offered a separate bell button, 6-5906, but it no longer is cataloged. FYI, Grzyboski's Trains ( www.grzyboskitrains.com ) ad in the current issue of CTT shows them available at $14.95.

[Anonymous]

[#welcome][#welcome][#welcome]bobbohn, I have been In your same position a few years back, and here's what I did. I bought a zw 275w . It has 4 variable outputs.so you can hookup any 4 voltage combinations you want. Another option is a vw 150 w. Or if your layout is small maybe a RW110. I have bought all of these on ebay from a seller called "ifixzws" and are all rebuilt/refurbished and excellent packing. The zw's sell for about 200-250...VW's 140-160 and RW's 40-80. Personally my favorite is the VW , maybe It's because I like the Old Lionel transformers. The vw was only made in 1948-49 i think. Hope this helps.........Tim

[spankybird]

HI Bobbohn,

The older ZW is a full sine wave transformer and will be compatible with railsounds. It is my understanding that the K-line is not a full sine wave.

The MRC has great reviews and is also a full sine wave transformer.

tom

[Anonymous]

The only reason I mentioned the MRC transformer is that it has a fixed output of 14 volts and is compatible with Lionel's Railsounds. I am not sure if the K-Line or older ZW would be compatible with Railsounds.

[Anonymous]

Get yourself a good old lionel 250 watt Z. You get 4 outputs each with a varriable dial and you can go to 25 volts and you have 15 amps of power. I have measured mine 2 and they both will hold 15 amps at the full 25 amps.
You can pick good ones up for 100 bucks, way less than the mrc.
Dave.

[Anonymous]

In my experience, Lionel O-gauge switches, such as the 022 's, just love to receive 16-18 volts into the switch's fixed-voltage jack. One might assume that the "programable fixed-voltage" posts on the CW-80 would be ideal for this; BUT, I think there is a problem concerning the "lack of a common ground" that may nix this procedure. Unfortunately, I don't really understand this issue; and therefore I don't know whether there is a workaround -- if it actually is a problem.

I, too, would very much like to understand: 1. the "common ground" problem in general; and 2. whether there is any way that the CW-80's "fixed output" can be used to power the fixed voltage inputs on your switches. And, whatever the problem, does it also have ssome significance with other (metal) accessories that might contact the "outside" rails of the track?

I hope other members will be kind enough to clarify these related questions.

[Nor have I any experience with the MRC "Pure Power," although it sounds interesting. I have routinely used K'w's, ZW's and other Lionel "postwar " transformers to power switches through their fixed-voltage jacks.]

Thanks, and a safe and Happy New Year to you all.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

Last March I received a Lionel NYC set with fastrack and the cw-80 transformer. I since dumped the fastrack because I was too impatient with Lionel to release the auto switches and control track. I am now using the old O gauge track. The train runs fine with the cw-80. My question is when wiring the O gauge switches, if I use the fixed voltage connector on the switch, will I be able to wire it to the accessory terminals on the cw-80. I think those terminals are variable voltage.
If this does not work, then I assume the Lionel accessory transformer would not work either.
What do you think of the MRC Pure Power transformer. That one has a 14 volt fixed voltage terminal for accessories.
I am looking to run one train, four switches, 2 control tracks and possibly a few trackside accessories.
Thanks and Happy New Year