1033 Breaker

1338 views
20 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    April, 2013
  • 246 posts
1033 Breaker
Posted by Michael6268 on Monday, January 21, 2019 11:24 AM

Original breaker will trip within approx in 3-4 seconds of a direct short.  Should I leave as is, or replace with new modern breaker?

  • Member since
    January, 2009
  • 1,790 posts
Posted by 8ntruck on Monday, January 21, 2019 12:05 PM

I believe that the internal circuit breakers were designed to protect the transformer, not anything that was powered by it.

If you are running modern locomotives with electronics in them, it would be a good idea to add a modern breaker, as the electronics are much more sensitive to shorts and voltage spikes than the postwar electromechanical devices.  This can be placed between the transformer and the track. 

It is also a good idea to place a surge surpressing diode across the transformer output as well to provide additional protection for the electronics.

Some folks are using automotive self resetting breakers for improved short protection than the internal breakers offer.  

Good luck.

KRM
  • Member since
    January, 2011
  • From: North Bluff above Marseilles IL
  • 5,553 posts
Posted by KRM on Monday, January 21, 2019 12:10 PM

I agree with 8N but I just leave the transformer alone and put these in behind it to protect the newer trains.

Buss resetting breakers and the surge surpressing diode across the transformer output as well. I also put the surge surpressing diode across the Locons.

 

 

 

 I use these ten Amp breakers

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009WQPBYS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06__o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 Holders like this sized to you breaker's need.

 https://www.ebay.com/itm/18-GAUGE-MINI-FUSE-HOLDER-IN-LINE-WITH-COVER-AUTO-MOTORCYCLE-BOAT-RV-MADE-IN-USA/382297089687?hash=item5902aea697:g:-V8AAOSw1vlUuulO:rk:10:pf:0

 

Joined 1-21-2011    TCA 13-68614

Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

  • Member since
    April, 2013
  • 246 posts
Posted by Michael6268 on Monday, January 21, 2019 12:43 PM

I run TVS and external breakers on all my postwar transformers and have always replaced the internal breaker as well.  I was just wondering if its advisable to replace it also seeing the antiquated breaker works good....

KRM
  • Member since
    January, 2011
  • From: North Bluff above Marseilles IL
  • 5,553 posts
Posted by KRM on Monday, January 21, 2019 2:37 PM

Michael6268

I run TVS and external breakers on all my postwar transformers and have always replaced the internal breaker as well.  I was just wondering if its advisable to replace it also seeing the antiquated breaker works good....

 

 If that is the question then I guess that would be up to you. Seems your transformer is protected from the trains by the external breakers so all you would be saveing it from is it's self, say an old wire inside of it shorting out??

Joined 1-21-2011    TCA 13-68614

Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

  • Member since
    April, 2013
  • 246 posts
Posted by Michael6268 on Monday, January 21, 2019 2:48 PM

8ntruck

I believe that the internal circuit breakers were designed to protect the transformer, not anything that was powered by it.

 

I have heard that also.   I've often questioned that theory though. If the transformers internal circuit breaker is working correctly, and there is a short on the track. Wouldn't a properly working internal circuit breaker possibly avoid or at least limit the damage done to any engines or items that happened to be powered from the track. As opposed to if the circuit breaker wasn't working at all and current continues to flow?

  • Member since
    December, 2005
  • From: Hopewell, NY
  • 2,806 posts
Posted by ADCX Rob on Monday, January 21, 2019 11:10 PM

Michael6268
...If the transformers internal circuit breaker is working correctly, and there is a short on the track. Wouldn't a properly working internal circuit breaker possibly avoid or at least limit the damage done to any engines or items that happened to be powered from the track. As opposed to if the circuit breaker wasn't working at all and current continues to flow?

Draw out a circuit as you describe here, and point to what "damage done to any engines or items that happened to be powered from the track" you are concerned about. That should answer your question.

Rob

  • Member since
    April, 2013
  • 246 posts
Posted by Michael6268 on Tuesday, January 22, 2019 9:17 AM

Nope! I pulled out my crayons and drew a picture as I was told,  but still not clear. If an internal breaker only protects the Transformer, then isn't a external breaker a few inches further along in the circuit doing the same?  Still not grasping how a internal breaker does not help to at least some extent protect electronics on the track.

  • Member since
    December, 2005
  • From: Hopewell, NY
  • 2,806 posts
Posted by ADCX Rob on Tuesday, January 22, 2019 10:23 AM

Michael6268
...Still not grasping how a internal breaker does not help to at least some extent protect electronics on the track.



The answer is, no breaker or fuse will provide the protection you seek. The damage to electronics is from over-voltage spikes, not current, hence the need for a TVS.

And yes, an external breaker a few inches further along in the circuit is doing the same thing, in redundancy.

Rob

  • Member since
    August, 2009
  • 87 posts
Posted by POTRZBE on Wednesday, January 23, 2019 10:42 AM

ADCXROB, what is this TVS of which you write?

  • Member since
    December, 2005
  • From: Hopewell, NY
  • 2,806 posts
Posted by ADCX Rob on Wednesday, January 23, 2019 11:32 AM

POTRZBE
ADCXROB, what is this TVS of which you write?

This is it - a 33-36 volt bidirectional TVS diode:

See: Transient Voltage Suppression

Rob

  • Member since
    August, 2009
  • 87 posts
Posted by POTRZBE on Thursday, January 24, 2019 10:03 AM

I have 2 AN-501 thermal circuit breakers.  I have had them a long time and can't remember where (or why) I got them.  Is this the same as a 33-36 volt diode?

  • Member since
    April, 2013
  • 246 posts
Posted by Michael6268 on Thursday, January 24, 2019 10:29 AM

No. They are different items. A TVS diode stands for- Transient Voltage Suppressor.  Protects against voltage spikes. They're normally installed between the hot and common of things such as Transformers, lock-ons, or can even be installed inside of locomotives.  They somewhat look similar to a resistor.  It's the black cylindrical thing in the picture above connected between the lock on terminals.

  • Member since
    August, 2009
  • 87 posts
Posted by POTRZBE on Friday, January 25, 2019 10:27 AM

How would I wire a TVS to tubular track where I have already soldered the connecting wires to the track?  Also, how would I attach a TVS to Fastrack?  Could the TVS be wired at the transformer?  Are the prongs of the TVS long enough to do that?

  • Member since
    January, 2009
  • 1,790 posts
Posted by 8ntruck on Friday, January 25, 2019 3:15 PM

The TVS can be installed across the same terminals on the transformer that feed the track.  Usually, the TVS is about 3/8 inch long, maybe 1/8 inch diameter and has a lead on each end that is a little over 1 inch long.

You could also solder the TVS across an outside rail and middle rail on tubular track.

Good luck.

  • Member since
    December, 2005
  • From: Hopewell, NY
  • 2,806 posts
Posted by ADCX Rob on Friday, January 25, 2019 5:15 PM

POTRZBE
How would I wire a TVS to tubular track where I have already soldered the connecting wires to the track?  Also, how would I attach a TVS to Fastrack?  Could the TVS be wired at the transformer?  Are the prongs of the TVS long enough to do that?

8ntruck
The TVS can be installed across the same terminals on the transformer that feed the track.  Usually, the TVS is about 3/8 inch long, maybe 1/8 inch diameter and has a lead on each end that is a little over 1 inch long.

You could also solder the TVS across an outside rail and middle rail on tubular track.

Good luck.

You can place just a Lockon with a TVS connected to the two clips anywhere convenient.

Or to the underside terminals(one center rail, one outer rail), and hidden beneath, on any piece of FasTrack. If you solder one in on every terminal track, you will always have the protection in place.

Rob

  • Member since
    March, 2010
  • 185 posts
Posted by rrlineman on Saturday, January 26, 2019 7:45 AM

according to lionel's parts/repair sheets, 4 secs is about correct. longer then 6 secs then a adjustment needs to be made if you have a 1033 with the early breakers with the set screw. And yes the breaker is there more to protect the transformer then the trains. Of course back in the 40's -60's you didn't have to worry about all the electronic garbage that is put into today trains frying.

  • Member since
    August, 2009
  • 87 posts
Posted by POTRZBE on Saturday, January 26, 2019 9:59 AM

A big thank you to all that replied.  Seems like a simple fix to what could be a big problem with modern day electronics.

KRM
  • Member since
    January, 2011
  • From: North Bluff above Marseilles IL
  • 5,553 posts
Posted by KRM on Saturday, January 26, 2019 11:12 AM

POTRZBE

A big thank you to all that replied.  Seems like a simple fix to what could be a big problem with modern day electronics.

 

Here is a link to where you can get the TVS. Thanks to lionelsoni

https://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine?Keyword=1.5KE36CA

 

Joined 1-21-2011    TCA 13-68614

Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

  • Member since
    August, 2009
  • 87 posts
Posted by POTRZBE on Saturday, February 09, 2019 9:17 AM

Thank you, KRM.  The Mouser page shows 29 of these diodes.  How do I know which one is right for me?  I run 2 separate loops of Lionel tubular track powered by a post war ZW transformer.

  • Member since
    December, 2001
  • From: Austin, TX
  • 9,820 posts
Posted by lionelsoni on Saturday, February 09, 2019 1:25 PM

Most of those are simply from different manufacturers.  Notice that Mouser's part number is just the manufacturer's part number with a prefix that identifies the manufacturer.  Some of them do seem to have variations on the packaging.  I would buy the Littelfuse, which is a reputable company.

Bob Nelson

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month