Help!!! Did my 2343 kill my Transformer or the other way around?

[2343]

I recently purchased a 2343 SF AA set. When I put the battery in the power unit the horn made the usual noise indicating that it was working. I put it on my O-27 layout and the horn sounded when using my TW Transformer a few times but I hit the whistle (horn) control as the power unit was approaching the Automatic Flagman on my layout and no sound from the horn. I emailed a guy that I know about and he claimed it was the rectifier on my TW transformer that died and that the train was probably ok, but even with a new battery, the train makes no sound (horn sound that is..the train still operates fine otherwise) when moving it. I found a cheap 40 watt transformer that I have and tested a whistling tender with both the TW and the cheap transformer. The tender whistles with the cheap transformer and is silent with the TW. The 2343 doesn't sound with either transformer. What do you think was the order of killing these products? Can I still use my transformer safely with a shot rectifier? Is the 2343 horn repairable? Help!!!!! I'm new to vintage trains and it's all gone up in smithereens!

[wrmcclellan]

2343,

Welcome to the forum!

You do not have a big problem. Your friend is probably right that the old copper oxide rectifier disk in the TW has expired (it is replaceable by a skilled technician).

The old rectifier in all transformers is not consistent (particularly with age) in the amount of DC offset voltage it produces and this is why they work with some whistles/horns and not with others.

You can still run your trains without any harm with the TW. The rectifier not working does not hurt anything. If you wish, there is an alternative device called the Lionel 6-5906 Sound Activation Button. No longer produced by Lionel thay are available (usually under $10) quite easily from dealers that carry older Lionel. This button goes in series with your "hot" lead (A, B posts, etc. from trtansformer) to the track center rail and it performs the same function as the rectifier in the TW (and works more reliably as it uses modern diodes for rectification).

Regards,
Roy

[2343]

Thanks for the info although I'm still disappointed that the 2343 horn is dead - even using a cheaper transformer and hitting the whistle/horn button. For immediate purposes, I just bought a New Old Stock Lionel Shed unit with a remote diesel horn (I guess it uses a 9Volt battery - it will arrive in a few weeks) to help with the sound problem.

Can I ask a few TW questions? I know how to wire it for the main track...but which letter posts do I hook accessories directly to? I've got everything (which isn't much...the flagman, the Lionel pumping station, the Large yardlight pavillion, and the industrial water tower (the blinking red light)..all hooked onto the main track with lockons. I've had no trouble powering my layout, but I fear that my ignorance of how to wire the TW will eventually blow the units. Finally, I got quoted a $40 repair of the rectifier price...If I can buy a reconditioned TW for $50-$75, that's probably a better way to spend my money, don't you think?

I'm sorry to ask all of these basic questions, but I've acquired a whole lot of stuff all at once and I'm no expert on using any of it! That's why I joined the forum. Thanks for reading and helping.

[wrmcclellan]

2343,

Ask all the questions you wish. We are here to help and are happy to do so. It is our way of promoting the hobby.

You probably did not harm your horn in the 2343. The older transformer may not produce enough DC offset to trigger it. Your whistle tender worked and probably does not require as much voltage as the 2343. The DC relays in Lionel locos are not that consistent to where they all work the same.

$40 is probably right for the repair. As you say - another one for $50 - $75 is a judgement call on your part.

Basic Wiring:

A - U for track power - this transformer is a little different from other Lionel transformers as Lionel recommends connecting the A post to the outside rail and the U post to the center rail.

Depending upon when your TW was manufactured, there are either two unmarked posts for accessories at 14 VAC or posts E - F for 14 VAC for accessories.

Posts C - A will give you 18 VAC

Posts B - A will give you 7 VAC (if post B exists)

Posts D - F will give you 12 VAC (if post F is labeled)

If posts E and F are not labeled (ie unmarked) then post D to the far right unmarked post will give you 12 VAC.

So you have several options for accessory voltages.

Be aware that posts A - U for trains will supply about 4.5 - 5 amps (will power one dual motored loco and some lighted passenger cars)

The accessory posts will also supply about 4.5 - 5 amps.

Regards,
Roy

[lionelsoni]

Check the horn relay on the 2343. See http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=192

The armature of the horn relay (the plate on the bottom of the relay) should lift up when you try to blow the whistle. If it doesn't, the problem is with the relay itself or upstream of it; if it does, the problem is downstream, with the D cell or the horn itself. Let us know what you find.

[2343]

I thought that it was my relay as well..I did some amateur sleuthing - looking at the unit through the battery compartment and everything seemed ok. I'd be inclined to agree with the other poster who said that it's probably just the transformer, but then why, when I put a battery in, does the train horn make no noise when moving it from side to side or carrying it. It had done so previously. I'm way too new and cautious to remove the shell. I fear that something will crack and I'll never be able to get it back on correclty. Also, I have a wife that indulged these purchases and she already told me that amateur repair by me is OUT OF THE QUESTION .. not for fear of electrocution, but because she'd kill me for spending money on something and then breaking it to the point of unusability. Feel my pain?

[wrmcclellan]

2343,

I feel your pain. Next thing you know you will be seaking around with tools looking for secure places in which to operate!

I had forgotten that turning the unit upside down will cause the relay to engage. I just checked this out on one of my units and lo and behold - the horn sounded! So you may have a hung up relay. These untis are quite stout and although possible, it is unlikely that the relay is seriously damaged.

What area of the country are you in?

Regards,
Roy

[2343]

Massachusetts. Charles Ro said that they wouldn't touch it which was disappointing as I purchased a Scout 1101 set from them so I know that they deal with vintage pieces. Dr. Tinker and I have been emailing but I'm not sure whether I want to go to a non-Lionel authorized repair center. The good news is that the 2343 AA set is a beautiful operation condition set and it runs well and smells like it should. I can live without a diesel horn if I have to...maybe that Lionel Shed thing will satisfy the hunger for sound. I'll probably look for a bargain, operating condition TW transformer to replace mine so that I can have whistling sounds when I put my loco/steam tender units on. I just feel somehow responsible for killing the horn on this unit as it worked for all of 5 minutes before I did something to ruin it.

[lionelsoni]

Well, if you're not allowed to fix it, I guess you'll have to live with it broken. If you change your or your wife's mind, the shell comes off with three flathead screws, one in front and two in back, which you can see in the drawings I pointed you to.

[wrmcclellan]

2343,

What you want is reputable repair station. Lionel authorized only means they are authorized by Lionel to do their warranty work. This basically means only the new stuff that is in warranty and the ability to get parts from Lionel for some stuff out of warranty. Even today - on some Lionel engines less than 5 years old - Lionel has no spare parts and may send you to the aftermarket for assistance.

Lionel no longer carries any parts for older products. All the remaining inventory of New Old Stock (NOS) was sold off years ago and now exists in the many warranty and non warraty repair shops.

Obviously many authorized Lionel repair centers have been that way for many decades and still competently service older Lionel - because they have the experience and the parts. Others do not service older Lionel even though they are a Lionel warranty repair center.

Possibly some forum members from your part of the country can offer some recommendations. Be careful. There are a lot of "authorized" and experienced repair shops that do more damage than good. Talk to the shop you choose and make sure you are comfortable with them. Have them show you some of their work, parts inventory, and tools. How long will they take to repair it? Are their shelves overflowing with stuff waiting to be fixed? If they do not comfortably address your questions - then go somewhere else. Better to have a non-working horn than a ruined collectors piece.

Be aware that even the best of shops cannot guarantee that something irreplacable might not break during the repair. When things get old, there are things that happen due to the age of the unit and are not necessarily the fault of the repair center.

Regards,
Roy

[2343]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrmcclellan

2343,

Better to have a non-working horn than a ruined collectors piece.

My (and my wife's) sentiment exactly. I paid $225 for the AA units so I still feel that I got a good deal. I found the original boxes (not the master carton but the individual unit boxes) for $25 combined in a couple of auctions. So I'll keep my eyes peeled for the original instructions and a master carton and at some point I'll buy another powered unit that is in fully working order and retire this one to the shelf as a fond memory of my first real Postwar F3. I got as a present the Warbonnet Set from the mid-90's produced by Lionel and comparing that engine with the 2343 is like comparing tra***o treasure.

[2343]

Bob,
Thanks for your help, too. I found the schematics previously during a Yahoo search. Someday I'll find a dead 2343 and use that as my guinea pig for making amateur repair discoveries.

[daan]

Hi 2343,
If you think about leaving it as it is, take the shell off and try a few things to see what's going on. If you take care and put a piece of foam under the train there is no reason for damage. The shell is secured with 3 screws or, as in my 2353, with one screw in front. If that's the case, take out the front screw and lift the shell a bit. Then the shell can slide forward and will eventually disengage the locks on the back.
Inside you'll see (2343 has the horn and the motors in one unit) a relais with a hinge trough the bottom of the engine, that's your e-unit. The other relais is the horn relay. Next to it you'll find the battery holder.
It could be that the battery holder is oxidised, in that case a screwdriver can be used to scrape off the rust. Be sure that the battery makes good contact on both sides!
If that's ok, you go to the horn relais. The horn relais has a coil, a few wire solder points, and the contacts under the relais. If you use a toothpick, you can pu***he lever of the moving contact on the relais up and close it. The horn should sound now.
If not, the problem is in the wiring or in the horn. Follow the wire from the horn to the relais or it's first solder point. Then take your battery and connect a wire on the + side with tape so that you have possibility to test things.
Remove the lightbulb and place the battery with the - side on top of the lamp holder. That is your ground.
Now touch with the wire connected to the + side of the battery the first solder point of the wire coming from the horn, and see if it makes sound.
If not, see if the horn can move on it's stand, or connect a wire from the hornhousing to the - of the battery (you'll need to use tape again). If it still doesn't sound the horn is gone or the wire from the first solderpoint to the horn is in bad shape.
Wire cracs can be found by bending the wire. If you bend it and back, go a few cm further and bend again. A crack showes up as a sharp turn in the bent part.

If you want to go further, the horn can be fixed too, but you'll need more hands then you have. Bent the lips retaining the top of the horn and take the top off.
Inside you'll see a thin metal sheet, under it there is a small hammer and a coil. The hammer connects the + wire to the coil when in rest, if the coil is powered, the hammer bents down and disconnects the +. Therefore the power shuts off and the hammer will bent into it's former position making contact again.
In mine the wire of the coil to the base of the horn armature was broken. That is a hairthick wire, and I managed to solder it back to the base.
Rebuilding the horn is the opposit.

Apart from dismantling the horn, you won't need to take anything off or remove apart from the shell, and gives the oppurtunity to locate the problem. So if you whish, you could leave the horn intact since it's a tricky thing if you don't have experience in dismantling things.
If the relais is faulty you can try to clean in with electrocleaner (NOTHING ELSE!!) and if you do so, keep away from the shell. The same wire check can be done on the wires to the relais.
If you put the machine on the track with the hood off, you could also see if the relais attracts the contacts up far enough to make contact, may be the contact is only bent..

If you don't feel confident about it, a lionel service center can do it for you.

[CSXJOE]

2343:

Where do you live? Maybe someone can point you to a local reputable repair person.

[2343]

Thanks for the additional posts.

I'm in Greater Boston in Massachusetts. Charles Ro in Malden would not touch it.

Again, I'm banned from amateur repair of taking off the shell and since my wife indulged this and other purchases, I've got to honor her request. It's the least that I can do.