Lionel 8e- a few questions!

[Leverettrailfan]

thanks so much folks!

I know they are loose interpertations, but the electrics often share quite notable traits with real locos, wheras the steamers aren’t based off of any prototype as far as I know (but I’m ready to be proven wrong!). Thanks, that sure looks like what the 8e is representing! For some reason I thought New Haven. Of course, the 256 was based on a New Haven boxcab. Shame they never had a standard gauge equivalent, that would’ve been neat! Judging by what you say, sounds like my loco was made roughly between 1927 and 1928, but easily could have been made a year or two beyond this bracket. It has cast headlights, thus the 1927 date, and transition couplers are c. 1923 to 1928, according to the info above, but it stands to reason that I can’t be sure of dates. Hey, that’s a 2-3 year margin, I’m glad to be that close. I’m quite confident that the parts are original, the headlights are not repros, and have zinc pest. The couplings had black paint on them, and the frame had clearly been repainted. Stands to reason that the prior owner didn’t have the ability, or confidence, to remove the couplers. Sloppy paintwork too! the loco of course, has the 2 position E unit. 

Thank you so much becky, for all those details! Just what I needed! I guess this fine specimen is 90 years old, give or take about a year. That’s older than anyone in my family.

[Firelock76]

Becky certainly hit all the high points, and there's little I can add except you have to remember Lionel's pre-war locomotives and trains are very loose interpretations of the real thing.  They were meant to be toys after all, and not scale models.

Those would come later with the Hiawatha, the M-10000, and the 700E Hudson.

For example, the Standard Gauge Blue Comet doesn't look anything at all like the real train. But it sure is cool!

By the way, ever see one of those Lionel Blue Comets?  I saw one at The Train Station in Mountain Lakes NJ last year.  The size of the thing shocked me!  I had no idea they were that big!

[Penny Trains]

It's not a New Haven loco at all.  It's based on the New York Central "T-Motor":

It's the smaller brother to the P2 Motors:

...which were ex-Cleveland Union Terminal P1a's:

Here's what it says about 8E's in the Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900-1942 by David Doyle, 2005 printing:

1. From 1926 through 1930, the 8E was painted olive green.  The whistle and pantograph were brass, matching the windows and other trim.  Cast headlights, painted gold, were installed beginning in 1927.  (Early versions had slide-on headlights.)
2. During 1929, the locomotive was available painted Mojave.  Cast headlights were used, and the pantograph and whistle were brass.
3. As it was for the 8, red was the dominant color for the 8E during 1930-32.  It's window inserts were painted cream, and the rest of the trim was brass.  Some examples exist that used carried-over brass window inserts.  Some examples have a cream bead around the cab base.
4. Occasionally, peacock examples of the 8E are found.  These have orange window inserts and are well sought after.  Some have an orange bead or stripe around the base of the cab.
5. Another hard to find color combination for the 8E has a pea green body with cream-colored window inserts.

The book also says: "8E: Reverse unit-equipped versions of the 8 began to be produced in 1926.  By the time they were discontinued in 1932; the 11" 0-B-0 was using a drum-type E-unit, but the bulk of the production used the pendulum-type reversing unit."

Greenberg's Guide To Lionel Trains 1901-1942, Volume 1, Standard and 2 7/8" Gauge by Bruce C. Greenberg says "Couplers are useful for dating but difficult to date.  Usually you can determine the date at which any of these coupler types originated, but ending dates fall into a gray area.  It is unlikely that Lionel disposed of their old coupler inventory every time they came up with a new design.  They probably stopped manufacturing the older type, but they still used what they had left whenever they could.  For example, production of the old hook couplers probably stopped in 1923, but this type can be found on original train sets sold into the late 1920's."

Dr Greenberg further goes on to say "The combination latch coupler was used as transition from the old hook coupler and was probably used as long as customers were still buying new cars to go with old sets."  The generally accepted time frame for combination couplers is 1923-1928.

This book also has a chart showing the evolution of both the 8 and 8E.  Only the 8 was produced in dark olive.  There are 3 variations of the combination latch coupler, but only the type 2 was used with the 8E's.  The Type 1 has no spring retainer while the Type 2 has a separate brass spring retainer and the Type 3 has no separate piece as the retainer was built-in.

So that's the skinny on 8E's and combination couplers from the best sources I know. 

[Leverettrailfan]

In the middle of sprucing up my 8e, and I realized I was still unsure exactly which New Haven boxcab electric it’s supposed to have been based off of. It honestly doesn’t really resemble any of them, in that none I could find pictures of, had windows like that, with the 4 pannels. So is it just a really, really loose interpertation of an EP3 or something? The Milwakee BiPolar is much easier to recognize, in my opinion. 

And secondly. Trying to see if I can narrow down the time frame on when it might have been made. I know they made the 8e from 1926 to 1932. But, are there any variations, that are associated with certain time frames that are more narrow? Mine has transition couplers (combination latch and slot). I’m replacing them, because the condition was awful, and one was broken. Going to install a set of reproductions, same style coupler of course. 

I’m not interested in apprasal here, I just want to see if I can narrow it down to like, say ‘earlier’, or ‘later’, and maybe a set of years that define around when that was exactly.

the paint is what I would describe as Olive Green. NOT DARK OLIVE. Seems to be the most common color for these locos. I saw the online videos of someone repainting theirs, which was in the same condition as mine cosmetically, more or less, and they did it up in red. I generally don’t like the idea of changing colors like that, I’d rather keep things honest. I’m not repainting mine, I just cleaned it up, and clear coated it, since it’s going to be in contact with small children, and I don’t want them playing with toys that have lead paint on them!