Dealing with the history of Marx mechanical steam engines is quite confusion. After looking through my reference material (Greenberg’s Guide to Marx Trains, Vol 1; Greenberg’s Marx Trains Pocket Price Guide, 9th edition; and Old Windup Trains by James Pekarek) I’ve been able to identify 21 different engines not counting variations. No one reference contained all 21. The 533, and 490 referred to by JamesP are somewhat obscure as I only found reference to them in Old Windup Trains. The only way to sort all this out is to describe each one with variations in chronological order as Marx numbering system seems extremely jumbled. First up (in a later post) will be the 232 Commodore Vanderbilt produced from ’35 to ’48 with interruption for WWII.
Papa D
JamesP
Great post with a lot of information. Will take me a bit to digest. Suspect you've given me a quest to find a windup motor type for each of your 4 catagories.
Papa D started a very interesting discussion on another thread, one that I would like to explore further. In order to continue the discussion without "derailing" the other thread, I thought I would start this topic so we can talk about Marx windup motors in detail! Thank you Papa D!
First, the post that lead to this discussion:
Papa_D The last of the CV production was in ’48, however Mercury production lasted to ’52. They used the same windup motor. “400” production started in in ’52 and lasted until ’76, although not continuous during this time span. Given the overlap between the Mercury and “400” windup production, in all likelihood the motors would have the same form and fit given Marx’s manufacturing approach that focused on saving half-pennies per unit. The windup key location and front attachment screw location looks to be the same based on the attached photo of a “400” windup. From the underside, the motors look to have the same form and fit. I grabbed the attached photo off of eBay. Finally, I have a “401” windup. Never thought of the motors being interchangeable until reading your post. Just tried it. The only difference is the front cross beam for the attachment screws is narrower for the “400” (on the left) vs CV (on the right). Also, the CV uses a fine thread screws while the “400” uses course thread screws (back to that fraction of a penny stuff). Easiest solution would be to just change out the cross beams. My “401” motor runs longer per wind-up than my CV, I might just have to make a change. The wheels certainly look much better. Papa D
The last of the CV production was in ’48, however Mercury production lasted to ’52. They used the same windup motor. “400” production started in in ’52 and lasted until ’76, although not continuous during this time span. Given the overlap between the Mercury and “400” windup production, in all likelihood the motors would have the same form and fit given Marx’s manufacturing approach that focused on saving half-pennies per unit. The windup key location and front attachment screw location looks to be the same based on the attached photo of a “400” windup.
From the underside, the motors look to have the same form and fit. I grabbed the attached photo off of eBay.
Finally, I have a “401” windup. Never thought of the motors being interchangeable until reading your post. Just tried it. The only difference is the front cross beam for the attachment screws is narrower for the “400” (on the left) vs CV (on the right). Also, the CV uses a fine thread screws while the “400” uses course thread screws (back to that fraction of a penny stuff).
Easiest solution would be to just change out the cross beams. My “401” motor runs longer per wind-up than my CV, I might just have to make a change. The wheels certainly look much better.
So, Marx made some different versions of the windup motors. I split them into four basic types: Wheel Governor, Early Ratchet, Late Ratchet, and Riser Gear. There are variations of each type except for the Riser Gear, which (as far as I know) only came in one style. The ratchet motors actually have the mainspring hub (where the key goes) located about 1/16" further back than the Riser Gear motor. If you swap them, it can sometimes cause the bump on the key to catch on the keyhole in the body in some positions. That's not a big problem; sometimes it will slip past fairly easy, other times it helps to enlarge the keyhole with a round file.
If you look closely at the (windup) 400, 490, 533, and late 198 bodies, you will notice that some have the keyhole on the right side, some on the left. If the keyhole is on the left, it originally came with the Riser Gear motor, if it is on the right, it originally came with a Ratchet Motor. If you look at a 400 with the keyhole on right, and compare it to a 400 with the keyhole on the left, you will find the keyhole on the left is located slightly forward of the keyhole on the right to account for the minor difference in mainspring hub location between the two different types of motors. The 401 Marx will have oval keyholes on both sides of the body (except for one very hard to find variation). The Riser Gear motor and Ratchet Gear motors wind in opposite directions, but by inserting the key from the opposite sides of the motor, they both wind in the clockwise direction... and I suspect that is another reason for Marx changing sides for the different types, to keep the winding direction consistent.
There are also slight differences in the front crossmembers, depending on the loco. As you noticed, some are different widths. The later locos tend to have the screw holes a bit further forward than the earlier models. That means that although a Riser Gear motor will go into a CV body, it can be hard to get the screws started in the front crossmember. It may be replaced, or tweaked back slightly with pliers to make it fit.
Here is my V4.0 list of Marx motor types and variations. Please note that it ONLY includes the basic motor variations, it does not cover variations in front crossmembers, drive wheels, mounts or brake levers:
Wheel Governor
1a) Screw in key w/ brass hub, wheel governor, bell, sparker, and spring type ratchet.
1b) Non-sparking version of 1a.
Early Ratchet
2a (Transition) Screw in key w/ brass hub, governor in motor (low), bell, sparker and spring type ratchet
2b) Screw in key w/ brass hub, governor in motor (low), bell, sparker, and ratchet w/ fingers.
2c) Reversing version of 2b: governor in motor (high), no sparker.
Late Ratchet
3a (Transition) Square key w/ die-cast hub, governor in motor (low), bell, sparker and ratchet w/ fingers held in place by a brass spacer.
3b) Square key w/ die-cast hub, governor in motor (low), bell, sparker, and ratchet plate.
3c) Reversing version of 3b: governor in motor (high), no sparker.
3d) CV Whistling version of 3b: whistle modulated horizontally, no sparker or bell.
3e) Mercury Whistling version of 3b: whistle modulated vertically, no sparker or bell.
3f) Puffer version of 3b: no sparker or bell.
3g) Plain version of 3b without sparker, with bell.
3h) Plain version of 3b without bell, with sparker.
3i) Two Speed version of 3b with bell, no sparker.
Riser Gear
4) Square key w/ die-cast hub, governor in motor (low), bell, gear ratchet.
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