Who are the experts on the new Lionel CW80 transformer.

[ChiefEagles]

Got one with the Polar Express. Runs the post war conventional engines great. One problem is the Pensy turbine. Will not blow the whistle. Flashes the green light for over load. The KW's and the DCS will blow it OK. I know it needs replacing. Now to the questions. When I hit the direction button, it takes about 5 seconds for the transformer to cycle. IOW, the thing drops power and then about 5 seconds later, it builds the power back. Not suddenly but a fast from nothing to the setting. I also tried to set the accessory voltage using a volt meter. Will not work. It shows 19.53 V AC all the time. Even with all the buttons pushed down, green light flashing and handle all the way down and at any setting. So I checked the voltage on the variable side. It showed 19.53 volts with the handle closed. So I checked the other transformers I have to be sure the voltmeter was OK. It showed the correct voltages for all at the settings of the handles. So I hooked the CW80 to the track. Handle down, put train on the track and no voltage. Strange. Main question is: the response time suppose to be this slow when the direction button is mashed? [its not the eunits as the lights are off and then come up to brightness very fast after 5 seconds]. Also: Maybe somone can answer the crazy volt readings.

[Anonymous]

Chief,

No doubt foolishly, I will take a shot at some of your issues. I have two CW-80's and I like them, although I'm not ready to discard my ZW's. The CW-80 is "unlike any other transformer, that Lionel has ever made," according to Lionel Tech Services. For anyone who has long experience with the ZW's, KW's, 1033's, etc., it seems just a tad quirky. One question is, are the quirks bugs or features?

Take the "slow throttle response. " I have heard that this is a "ramp up, ramp down" feature, designed to help keep rubber tires from being spun off the wheels, and/or gears (especially plastic ones) from stripping due to too-rapid accelerations.

One thing this new throttle can do, in many cases, is to allow you to stop your train at a station with sufficient power to allow the train to proceed forward again without cycling into neutral and reverse, etc. I don't know whether such activity is really good for the brushes and commutator. I hope it doesn't hurt anything.

The CW-80 may not trip the E-unit on certain loco's even when you want it to. I have been told that the cure for this is to have a small load on the transformer at all times. A single lamp, such as from an illuminated lock-on or caboose is supposed to do the trick. (Don't ask me why--I don't claim to understand any of this.)

The transfomer "behaves" at rest as if it is producing 20 volts but (almost) no current. I don't understand much about electical waveforms, but the bottom line seems to be that this doesn't seem to hurt anything. I have had techs from both Lionel and Williams tell me that, other than causing the sound system to emit a slight burp when the device is first plugged in, this causes no ill-effects.

The manual says to put the train on the track and get everything in readiness, set the throttle to its lowest setting, THEN to plug in the transformer, and you're good to go..

The biggest problem with the Owner's Manual" (available for downloading and printing at Lionel's website if you've lost yours) is that there are at least two and perhaps as many as three versions floating around. (I have seen three.) To some extent they are inconsistent with each other, and even internally inconsistent. For example, the diagram which shows the connection from transformer to track directly contradicts the written instructions on the same page. The correct wiring is Post "A" to the center rail, Post "U" to an outside rail. (I got this info less than two weeks ago by email from Lionel.)

Incidentally, I like the capability of hooking up through "double banana pins." If you color-code the pins with a little paint or nail polish, you can't go wrong, and you minimize the danger of twisting or otherwise breaking off the posts, which aren't built like they used to be.

My biggest piece of advice is to put your voltmeter back on its shelf and leave it there--it will just confuse the issue.

To set the "programmable fixed voltage" tap, first CONNECT THE ACCESSORY to the outputs. (Two out of the three versions of the manual that I've seen do not make this clear.) Imagine a 397 coal-loader as an example. With the throttle at minimum, press and hold all three buttons. Gradually increase the throttle. When the accessory is running at a satisfactory rate of speed (or lamps are glowing at the brightness you desire, or whatever) let up on the three buttons and bring the throttle back to zero. The new fixed output will remain where you set it until you actively change it again. In other words, don't worry about the actual voltage--just observe the behavior of the accessory and custom-tailor the "fixed" output to it. Some of us think that this is much better than a true fixed-voltage tap, which might be too high or too low for your particular accessory. (The 397 coal-loader, the one with the rubber belt, might be a poor example, in the sense that I would rather control mine with a throttle, rather than a fixed voltage. But it serves as an illustration.)

I won't even attempt to address the issue of "common ground," if any. What I have written above works for me, and I hope it helps others. I have noticed that many of the questions about the CW-80 (on that other Forum, of course) suggest that the owner has not read the manual carefully. Indeed, the manual could stand improvement but for the moment that's all there is as far as I know.

As for versatility, I don't have a whole lot of locomotives to test, but in my experience the CW-80 runs any Lionel loco I have ever put on the track, including any sound system from a pre-war air-whistle (if in good condition) to Railsounds-1, as well as my one Williams diesel. It will NOT run MTH/Railking Protosounds-1. Not even a little bit, in my experience. I do not have any experience with TMCC or DCS.

I do recommend letting your train run for, say, two minutes prior to sounding the horn, whistle or bell. Again, I don't know why, but when I do this it seems to work perfectly.

Sorry about the length, but this is a complex subject, which had me perplexed for a while, but I've grown to love the little beast, and think it's gotten something of a bum rap in some circles.

Hope this helps, good luck,

wolverine49

[ChiefEagles]

wolverine49, thanks for all the info [not long winded at all]. Been around this stuff since 1952 but was out of it from 85 until earlier this year. Things have really changed. What I do now is unplug my lead from the TIU [DCS] to the track I am running the conventional engine on. I use marked double banana clips on the leads from the CW80. I plug it in and just run the engine with the CW80 [bypassing all other equipment and all track sections are insulated from each other]. I checked the phasing with the other bricks and only get a very tiny spark and not the "weld" arching like out of phase. Never had heard about the light betwen the two transformers to check phasing [like in manual]. I do have a light on a lockon on each track section. This is suppose to help DCS signal too. You are right. They run old Lionel engines great [except for the old whistle in the Pensy turbine and it needs repairs]. Have not tried my new Williams SD90's with it. Think I will. You answered my questions. Thanks.

[Anonymous]

I have a like new KW lionel transformer that I am willing to sell If sombody wants some good power for a reasonable price. Just email me. [e-mail].
Dave Roxin.

[ChiefEagles]

I have a used and a new [found it in box, never used] KW. Theya re great transformers. I love them. I probably don't need it but how much? Recommend them if in good condition.

[Anonymous]

I’ve been monitoring this topic (CW-80) for about a month now on this chat board as well as another on O gauge trains because of the inconsistencies I too have found with this transformer. After reading the excellent post by Wolverine49 I felt compelled to set up a test track with the CW-80 and test a variety of locomotives from different manufactures. I tested a modern day mid-priced Lionel 2-6-4 Steam engine and whistle tender, from the 95/96 era with no flywheel, a post war Lionel 675 with modern day whistle tender, an MTH Railking F3 with horn, and a Williams 671 Steam engine with bell and whistle. Connecting the transformer as instructed (U-2 (outside rail) and A-1 (inside rail)) I ran the test with a lighted lock-on and again without. I tested for consistency using the reversing action using the direction button and again with the lever, the whistle/horn button, and the bell (when it applied). Here are my results. The modern day Lionel steamer and tender worked perfectly in all categories, the reversing action cycled through forward, neutral, reverse, neutral, and forward again with out any problems, the whistle blew and it smoked as well as it can. It was great to learn how to apply the features offered by the voltage ramping aspects of this transformer, especially against a loco with no flywheel and issues with gears slipping. This transformer seemed perfect for modern Lionel with basic features. The Lionel PW 675 and MTH Railking F3 each performed well with the lighted lock-on and with out. The Williams 671 was the most inconsistent performer. With the lighted lock-on and one lighted piece of rolling stock it cycled through the reversing action as FNRF, it skipped the neutral function between reverse and forward. The electronic whistle worked as well as the bell with one anomaly. The bell action is delayed when you pu***he button by as much as 4-5 seconds. When the lighted lock-on was removed as well as the lighted piece of stock the 671 became more inconsistent where it remained stuck in neutral. After powering the engine down by setting the lever to zero the engine would re-set to forward, however once it was put in neutral it remained in neutral. Hope this helps. BTW-My MTH 750 runs all these items without any problems. MY new Lionel ZW does well with all these loco’s but there are some inconsistencies with the Williams as well. For proper operation between the Williams 671 and MTH-750 the black terminal must be connected to 2 (outside rail) and the Red terminal must be to 1 on the lock-on.
Ray F. Brookeville, MD

[spankybird]

I received my MTH newsletter to day and it has an article on the Lionel CW80
Transformer.

QUOTE: from MTH newletter
"Recently, MTH has received requests from operators interested in learning
if the Lionel CW80 Transformer and the K-Line Railchief 120 transformer are
suitable power supplies for Proto-sound locomotives. Unfortunately, both
transformers utilize inexpensive, but functional systems to output power to
the track. As designed, these units violate the age-old pure sine-wave
standard for power output developed by Lionel in the early 20th century and
followed by most transformer designs since. As a result, these units can
cause errant whistle and bell sounds to play during operations.

While these adverse effect will not harm a Proto-Sound locomotive they may
be undesirable. As a result, MTH does not recommend either the Lionel CW80
or K-Line Railchief 120 for use with Proto-Sound Locomotives."

Just thought you would want to know.
tom

[prewardude]

It seems that the "age-old pure sine-wave standard" is the only way to go. I have had nothing but problems with transformers that use a modified waveform.

Here's a perfect example: I have a Lionel Lines starter set from 1996 that I ran for a couple years with the 40 watt power supply that came with the set. It was fine for a while, but in the past few years, when running the train, it will just stop dead in it's tracks - with the headlight on. It doesn't go into to neutral, because if you turn the power way up it will usually take off again (at a very rapid pace). Finally I got sick of this, and decided to hook up my old Lionel 1033 transformer to see what would happen. The result? The train runs smooth as silk and never hesitates. I got the same results with a little 50 watt MPC transformer from the early 70s. In my experience, the best place for the new transformers that use a modified waveform is in the garbage. Not only are there incompatibilities with the various control systems, sound systems, etc., but some of the modern power supplies seem to be extremely hard on electronics, motors - even light bulbs! I can't speak to the CW80, because I don't own one - specifically because of the various problems mentioned above.

From here on out I will never buy a power supply that does not use a pure sine-wave signal.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Anonymous]

My opinion of the CW-80: Nice concept and design; lousy (undependable and erratic) performance.

When I received a CW-80 shortly after they were released, I found it to be very problematic with certain makes and types of locomotives, and not consistently within any given brand. In short: I found that I couldn't trust it, so it went back into its box, where it resides today.

[ChiefEagles]

Thanks for the comments. Guess I'll depend on my KW's and 1033's. I'll keep testing this CW80 though.

[Anonymous]

I'm not an "expert", but here is my experience with the CW-80:

I have been using two CW-80's on my small layout for over a year now. Each runs one train as well as a two accessories (semaphore, banjo, crossing gate, block signal) activated by insulated rail sections. I alternate running engines with the transformer handle as well as with TMCC in both command and conventional mode, using modern Lionel, MTH, Williams and K-Line engines. To date, I have had no problems with the performance of these transformers. My operating sessions tend to run no longer than 30-45 minutes at a time.

Operates MTH Railking PS-1 Doodlebug, SW-9 switcher, and LocoSound steam locomotive with no problems, including activating horn, bell and station/crew announcements.

Only "quirk": the only way to use an outside insulated rail section to activate signals, gates, etc., is to attach the wire from the "U" post to the center rail, and the wire from the "A" post to the outside rail. This results in reverse polarity and causes the "bell" button to blow the whistle/horn and the "whistle" button to sound the bell. When using a CAB-1, the "bell" and "whistle" buttons function normally.

I use a seperate 1033 to power lights, control tower, airplane at 11v. (posts B and C) and oil derrick and rotary beacon at 16v (posts A and C).

Hope this helps.

- Lou

[Anonymous]

It is now clear that there are as many posts from folks who cannot stand the CW-80 as there are from people who like it. Lionel corporation should not be happy with this situation. I wish someone knowledgeable from Lionel would jump in with some help. (I am no "expert" nor am I an apologist for Lionel.)

Meanwhile, this might help some of the people some of the time. If you don't have a copy of the Owner's Manual one can be viewed, or downloaded and printed out, at the Lionel website, specifically:

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/Findex.cfm

This link doesn't take you all the way to it, but it gets you close enough so you can probably navigate the rest of the way.

Once you get there, you will discover that you have a choice of manuals, one dated 1/04 and an earlier one. I use the more recent one. Even so, I have made the following pen-and-ink notations in mine:

1. On page 5 the diagram shows the "controller connections" reversed; Post A should connect with the center rail; Post U should connect with an outside rail, in most situations.

2. On page 9, where the manual shows items 1-5, I have added an item 0, squeezed in at the top, which reads "Connect the accessory to the CW-80's accessory posts."

3. Farther down the same page, item 3, I suggest adding "Observe the accessory and adjust the throttle lever until the accessory performs satisfactorily. See p.6, item 4."

I hope this will help somebody. It is not to imply that any of the members of this forum has not consulted his manual. The manual is admittedly Spartan, and I am not universally fond of all things Spartan, as some of you may appreciate. (Joke)

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

I just bought a new Winter Wonderland train set, complete with the CW-80 transformer. Unfortunately, the dad-blasted thing hasn't worked but for one hour over the last two days, no matter what we did (or undid and redid).

Pusing the horn button would cause the train to come a complete stop - pushing the driection button had no effect whatsoever - and the train would be running fine for fifteen minutes and then stop dead on the tracks and refuse to move again no matter what we did.

I finally asked for help here, and after trying everyones suggestions to no avail (othert than becomming more frustrated - if that was possible) I called Lionel Customer Service. The woman on the other end of the phone informed me that there are problems with a particular batch of the CW-80's, and promised to ship me a new one right away. Not bad at all for Customer Service just a few days before Christmas!

So, I will say that it looks neat, but it has failed miserably in evereything we asked it to do. I shall withhold final judgement until the new CW-80 arrives and is put to the test.

roger

[ChiefEagles]

Just experienced some quirks with mine now. Would not run a 1952 Hudson [that it ran fine the other night] with a MTH lighted caboose behind it. Everytime the caboose crossed a switch, it acted as if it shorted and the green light flashed. Would not also blow the whistle but did fine the other night [green light flashed each time]. Disconnected it and ran the KW and all ran fine [including the lighted caboose] and whistle blew fine. Guess this one will be used for accessory power or stored.

[lionelsoni]

I have never seen one. Are they heavy enough to be used as boat anchors?

[ChiefEagles]

Cord not long enough. [;)] Maybe for a jon boat used in a farm pond. [:D]

[Anonymous]

Guys,

I am new to this site--I found your thread while googling for issues with the cw80.

Based on some of the observed performance issues in this thread related to directional control, whislte/bell operation, and accessory connections I feel somewhat releived. I don't feel so confused anymore.

I have been working to get my 45 gateman to operate via a Fastrack insulated outer rail control rail setup utilizing the accessory fixed voltage in the same fshion as traditional non-digitally controlled transformers are used. I cannot get the gateman to operate on fixed 13VAC accessory input while attached to the rail common through the insulated section. The gateman acts like it is powered via track voltage although it's attached to acc. power.

During my investgation I found that the common (u) is not neccessarily common, it appears to be shared through a bridge of some sort, but not entirely "common." The transformer design certainly is non-traditional; I suspect the internal transformer output is a singular 19VAC routed through a digital divider/control circuit, powering the track and accessory posts through the same source, only the voltages are varied through digital control.

With the transformer powered and not attached to a load, I measured accross the track (a) and track common--19VAC. Next measured between track (a) and the accessory common--12 VAC. Unexpected. With the track power connctions made, transformer power control lever at 0 power, center to outer rail reads 19VAC, zero amps. Nothing whatsoever attached to the track at this point.

Next, I put a passenger car on the track--again, zero transformer control input, and the circuit went from 19VAC to 0 VAC as soon as I installed the car. At this point the track circuit and voltage readings were "traditional, " voltage increased and decreased as expected with throttle control. I suspect the track showing 19VAC with no loads or cars is part of the short to ground and overload protection function.

Not having access to Lionel's schematic diagram for the CW80, I can only guess what's going on internally--but I suspect the overload protection circuitry and transformer output voltage regulation is digitally controlled--only a poor (cheap) design.

Anyone here have an opinion on this?

[Anonymous]

I know that the FasTrack uncoupler and switches manuals warn not to use the CW-80 accessory outputs for aux power. I tried and they applied the fixed voltage from the outputs to the track. I called Lionel about it and really didn't get much of explaination just that it can't be done. I had two of them go out on me; the throttle would cut power out when it was lowered.
The only good thing I can say about it is it made me buy a Z-4000 [:D]

[Anonymous]

Dale Manquen did an exhaustive analysis of the CW-80 a couple of years ago Unfortunately, the only document I was able to find is the electrical schematic here it is:

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/453102703/m/8131051843

[Anonymous]

potts,

Try doing an "advanced search" on this as well as the equally friendly OGR forum. There are literally reams of material on this subject. Search on keywords such as "CW-80," "gateman," etc., and/or under author's name, such as "Manquen," a recognised authority on this device.

I have four CW-80 transformers, and have never had a moment's problem with any of them -- after carefully reading the owner's manual, and talking to Lionel Technical Service about the error on page 5 of the instructions (the diagram and the text directly conflict -- the diagram is WRONG, the text is RIGHT) and being advised that you cannot use the accessory taps with devices that require a "common" ground," Also, the throttle is SUPPOSED to ramp up slowly -- it's a feature, not a bug.

Oh, and forget your voltmeter. It will NOT read correctly or even sensibly on the outputs of this transformer -- especially if the transformer is not under an electrical load.. That fact, in and of itself, does NOT imean that the transformer is operating incorrectly. Please trust me on this.

I have four CW-80's, and over three years have had no problems -- knock wood. I am dismayed that some forum members refer to CW-80's as "boat anchors."

wolverine

[ChiefEagles]

Woverine did his research right. Lionel replaced mine with no problem. There is a batch that is bad. The code is a date on the bottom. Others are fine. My replacement has worked great [though I have not used it very much as it is too small for my applications].

[Dr. John]

I'm using a CW-80 for the Christmas layout. It seems adequate to the task for a small layout and one train running - no problems thus far. However, I do not plan to use it for my main layout that I will construct next year. I'll stick with my KW and 1033s for that one.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wolverine49
[
Meanwhile, this might help some of the people some of the time. If you don't have a copy of the Owner's Manual one can be viewed, or downloaded and printed out, at the Lionel website, specifically:

http://www.lionel.com/CustomerService/Findex.cfm

Thanks for posting this. I run my 2-loop layout with 2 CW-80's, but no manual was included with either one. Since I run ALL accessories off of 2 Lionel accessory transformers, I made-do without it. Guess I'm a odd-ball since I prefer these over my KW. Don't like the KW power controls moving in the opposite direction to each other. So far, they have worked fine (knock on wood)[:)] Joe

[Anonymous]

Potts1,
I am very new to the hobby. Just have the Winter Wonderland set and a 145 Gateman.
This is the way Lionel said to wire the 145 Gateman with the FasTrack activater track.
I had to number the Gateman terminals when looking from the front:
No.1 is right rear. (I believe this is the solenoid)
NO.2 is front left. ( I believe this is the common)
NO.3 is front right. ( I believe this is the lamp)
CW80 track A to the track outside rail. Opposite rail that the break is at on the Activater track.
CW80 track U to track center rail. Outside the isolated section.
CW80 accessory B to the same rail that track A is connected to.
CW80 accessory U to terminal 2 on the gateman.
Isolated track ( within the breaks on the activater track) to terminal 3 on the gateman.
A wire from terminal 3 to terminal 1 on the gateman.
The Gateman and the light come on when the train entered the insulated section.

I have a sketch in Paint that I made up to wire the 145 Gateman the way Lionel said to do it. I do not know how to post a sketch on the forum. If you send me your E-mail address I will send it to you.

I did not like having the track A terminal wired to the outside rail because I thought it might goof me up later because everything else I have heard is the Lionel track A should go to the center rail. What I did was connect the Gateman to an accessory Transformer so I now have the track terminal A to the center rail. I have a sketch of this too in Paint that I would send to you.

[Anonymous]

I'm grateful to those who have posted re: the Lionel CW80 transformer. The information has been most helpful. I've collected HO scale for many years and decided to add a Lionel set in 2003. The CW80 was an absolute disaster even after several exchanges. After reading your posts, I have a better understanding of the problems associated with the product and the owner manual, and can now effectively resolve the situation. The set was put back in the box after several frustrating attempts to operate it. Armed with this new info, I have a plan to resurrect it.

It appears that Lionel failed to adequately test the product prior to distribution. They also skimped when producing the owner manual. This strikes me as unconscionable as it will undoubtedly cause many potential new members to our hobby to shy away due to a perception of Lionel as being low quality. Most people who purchased a new set for the first time will not spend the time that some of us did to research and resolve the issues. They will simply give up and never enter the hobby, which is a loss to them and to all of us. Thanks again for the forum and the info.

[ChiefEagles]

I don't know why but I have stuck with postwar transformers. I have two KW's and a ZW with several 1033's and 1034's. I have picked them up at great savings and they work fine. I don have a quick acting circuit breaker box [I built myself] to protect my DCS and TMCC. Just seems that the old ones are reliable and keep on ticking.

[dougdagrump]

I never could get mine to operate properly with the isolated rail so I just hooked up the push button. With my sense of humor I think this was a better end result anyway. You just have some unsuspecting person pu***he button and just watch their reaction. [:-,] [:o)]

[Blueberryhill RR]

Has this become an ongoing problem?

[Anonymous]

I have been using two CW-80s on the small home layout for over two years. One was purchased in a hobby shop, the other at a show where a dealer was breaking up starter sets.

At various times, I run modern Lionel (conventional and TMCC), MTH (no PS and PS-1) and Williams. Have had no problems running anything. I do not have any postwar or PS-2 locomotives to test.

I've done the reverse wiring to trick to activate crossing gates and signals with the outside insulated rails without any problems. I can live with the bell and whistle button functions being switched.

Lou

[dwiemer]

I have a CW80 running the Christmas layout. It came with the Ridin the Rails Hobo set. The set ran fine for about an hour of running time and then the transformer just acted like it was shorted (blinking light, no power to the train). I emailed Lionel and they sent a new one out right away. It even came DHL in two days! I think it will be a good transformer for a limited layout as I don't have any command/control. I plan to fix the original one for some light accessory duty.
Dennis