Lionel and Marx compatible???

[GPJ68]

Dave,
Possible transformer faults/shorts/problems are the chief reasons I've been procrastinating trying out the Marx board solution (well, that and time...). I'm using an MTH Z-4000 trans, and it seems to be pretty quick on the draw for throwing the trans breaker for a track short/derailment/switch short. That and fiddlin' around finding the right length for the control rail without creating a dead spot with both engine rollers (of a variety of length/make engines) finding brief gaps to stall on. I thought about shorter control lengths on the outside rails also, but with my luck I'd still locate them wrong and risk frying the motors with a parked train. I'm cramming alot of track, switches, and (future) accessories in a relatively small area.

Bob,
I had looked at your solution back when I had first planned on using my glut of 1122's, but forgot about it when I went with K-Line 42's and the Marx O34's. The 1122's that are being (and have yet to be) used are located where parked trains on switches isn't a real concern. Since the Marx won't need any major mods like the 1122's, I believe I'll have to re-investigate using your technique. I only have three O34's (at the moment) that really ought to have derail "protection". The rest are paired up (controller-wise) on thru-sidings and shortcuts that won't result in a derailment if I miss a switch (a collision with a parked train maybe......). Luckily I've got K-Line's at the rest of the critical points.

The other thought I've had is rigging up a mini mechanical/electrical switched control like the K-Line's use inside the housing to disconnect the power from the switch motor once the switch is thrown in the right direction. I've got a couple of bum K-Line switches that I can salvage the small internal switch from and experiment. For that matter, a similar switch ought to be available at Radio Shack or elsewhere. A lever activated microswitch is what I guess it would be called.

Thanks y'all for the info and the ideas.

[lionelsoni]

GP, I described the way I stop the buzz in this old topic:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=11825&REPLY_ID=87039#87039

It works for both Lionel and Marx switches; but the Marx ones require no modification. All you do is power the switch (center terminal) from a 5000 microfarad (or thereabouts) capacitor which you charge from a DC supply through about 100 ohms. The "DC supply" for this purpose can be no more than a diode to an AC accessory voltage. Using DC opens the possibility of throwing switches through diode networks, for example, throwing all the necessary switches in a yard throat to get to a particular ladder track with one motion.

[Dave Farquhar]

GPJ68, I've done that method (described at http://www.sover.net/%7Egetty/gop/switches.htm ) and it works, but newer Lionel transformers signal a fault as a train goes over the section. It keeps working, but the blinking light may be disconcerting for some. Also I've found it a bit tricky to find a length for the control section that works equally well with Marx and Lionel locomotives. The ideal length for Marx works OK with Lionel Scout locomotives but the slightly higher-end Lionels seem to like a longer section better.

I'm going to experiment with shorter insulated rail sections and try going to the oustide and see how that works for me. Then the pulses to the switch will at least be shorter. I still won't be able to park on the control section but I don't think I've ever done that anyway. I figure a 2-inch section of insulated rail ought to be plenty.

It seems to me I tried controlling a Marx switch with an insulated rail the same way as a Lionel 1121 and couldn't get it working right, but I'll set up a loop of O27 on the floor with a pair of switches and try again. Since the Marxes can work off accessory power without modification I'd prefer those for reversing loops.

[GPJ68]

lionelsoni,

I had thought about using an insulated rail to trigger the switch, but then I believe I would have the same problem that 1122's have - burning out switch motors when a train stops on the switch (or insulated rail), especially since the Marx switches are powered separately (at a constant 14 volts) and not off track power. A few folks over on the Marx board have used a short isolated section of center rail to trigger the switch - is momentarily closed when a center roller (from loco, caboose, etc.) crosses it. I'm gonna read thru their method a few more times before giving it a whirl, just to be sure I'm not opening another can of wiring/electrical worms. The chief reason I like the concept is that only center rollers would trigger the switch and not every axle of every car (less likely to burnout or overheat and melt motor covers).

If I can find the bookmark for the page describing the method, I'll try to post it.

K-Line has the best (and only?) non-derail setup for O27 profile that only energizes the motor once to throw the switch, then disconnects to keep from burning out the motor. Maybe some deep meditation (while consuming the contents of my Shiner Bock reefer...) could result in a quasi-similar modification to the Marx switches.......

[lionelsoni]

Billyjack, do you understand that the Marx track, whether O27 radius or O34 radius, has the same rail profile as Lionel O27? From your last posting, it sounds like you might have the impression that it matches Lionel O31 ("O").

GPJ, it is easy to make Marx switches non-derailing, but not with the center rail. Just put a section of control track, that is, the track with the outside rails insulated from each other, on each of the trailing-point ends of the switch, using an insulating pin on each end of one of the outside rails, the "control rail". Wire each control rail to one of the outside terminals of the switch. Wire the center terminal of the switch to an accessory voltage or to the center rail voltage, as you prefer. Wire the controller to the outside terminals of the switch and to ground, that is, the outside rails of the rest of the track.

[Anonymous]

Great reply's from you all,
Another question. I now have a Lionel set with 027 guage track and still thinking of purchasing the MARX set with "0" gauge. From what I've read so far, the only problem I may encounter when running either set on either track, is the switches? The problem I have is my (1957) lionel tracks are badly corroded. The Marx track (that I am pondering) "O" gauge track is in fairly good shape. I still havent tested my "LW" transformer yet as I'm overseas at the moment, but expect it to work better than the MARX transformer. (50 watt).

[GPJ68]

Regarding Marx O34 switches, a problem I've run into is derailing engines (Lionel and Williams) when entering the turnout section. Seems that the open distance between the frog point and the swivel rail end is just far enough to allow the lead wheels of the engine truck to push slightly toward and jump the point. I've had to add a flange guide along the outside curved rail to keep the engines on track (literally). I've got the flange guide spaced the same distance from the outer rail as the molded-in ones on Lionel switches (1122, 5122, etc) so I won't be able to run Marx "fat wheel" engines - not a problem right now as I don't have any. Not sure if this fix for Lionel, et.al. would still work if the flange guide was spaced out far enough to clear a "fat wheel".

Anyone know if the 27" versions (with the low plastic covers) have the same derailing problem? I've only got one at the moment and it's not on the layout (yet).

I really like these Marx O34 switches - they snap smartly when powered off the 14V post, don't buzz or humm (although that's because they don't have a built-in non-derail function), they're low enough that my Williams SD will clear the top of the switch cover (barely), and there's the advantages of using 34"curves on the layout over tighter 27's or wider 42's.

And as far as non-derailing goes, I've been told there's a way to use a short control section in the center rail to possibly create an automatic non-derail function for these switches (and presumably other Marx switches as well). Gotta test that out next.

[palallin]

That's not the crossings that I'm talking about, bob, though it looks like they have the same problem. The center flangeways on the others are narrower but more abrupt because they are more square. I don't see a pic on eBay, but I may have one on my machine at home. If I do, I'll see about posting it.

[lionelsoni]

I don't have a Marx crossing; but, after searching I found a clear picture of one on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19147&item=5944746736&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

The center of the crossing seems to be largely empty, except for a round island in the middle. It looks to me like the space left for the fat flanges is excessive and that the island could be extended substantially closer to the rails without excluding Marx locomotives. Maybe that would do the trick.

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dave Farquhar


I wasn't aware of the problem with Lionel locomotives on Marx crossings. Thanks for that warning. Marx locomotives don't like Lionel crossings much either--they tend to stall. I wonder if I can come up with a way to make the Marx crossings more Lionel-friendly...

Thanks for the tip on the 1121s.

The problem with the crossings is the wide flangeways necessary for (you guessed it!) the fat wheels. The rollers drop into the gulf and hit a vertical wall that's a lot like curbing your car at road speed [:(]

Filling in the gap will help, but then you can't use the fat-wheeled locos. Some judicious filing to crate ramps in there might work well. I've been tossing some possibilites around, but I haven't actually tried anything yet.

[Dave Farquhar]

Marx locomotives do just fine on Lionel 1121 electric switches as well. I've run a Marx 591 and a Marx CP (both fat-geared locos) through an 1121 on my Christmas layout with no problems, which is nice because you can control an 1121 with an insulated track section, making automatic reverse loops really easy.

Anything newer than a Lionel 1121 won't work with the lower-end Marx locomotives though. The 1121 isn't as common as the others but it is pretty inexpensive. You can find them at train shows and on Ebay pretty frequently.

I wasn't aware of the problem with Lionel locomotives on Marx crossings. Thanks for that warning. Marx locomotives don't like Lionel crossings much either--they tend to stall. I wonder if I can come up with a way to make the Marx crossings more Lionel-friendly...

The coupler compatibility problem can be overcome by changing a truck on a common Lionel or Marx car. A number of people have also come up with some clever adapters that provide a degree of compatibility between the two.

[palallin]

One more point: be careful of using later Marx 90 degree crossings: they are very hard on roller pick-ups. I launched a Lionel caboose across the room once with one, and nearly tore up a Lionel engine. Too bad, too, because they are by far the best looking crossings in tubular rail.

[palallin]

One addition to Thor's point: fat Marx wheels WILL run through Lionel #1024 manual 027 swtiches. I do it all the time. Of course, Marx switches--which are pretty good ones!--handle the fat wheels, too.

[thor CNJ]

WHOA! Not all Marx is 100% compatible with Lionel. Earlier Marx locomotives have drive wheels which are geared along the inside of the rim. These are too thick to pass through Lionel switches and Lionel O gauge accessory operating tracks (they will usually make it through the O27 operating tracks, though). The Fat Wheel can only run through Marx switches.

The couplers are incompatible. Marx used four types" tongue and slot on older and on cheaper sets, a bird-tailed "tilt" coupler that was "automatic" and made in metal and plastic, mainly Postwar, and a non-operationg knuckle coupler that is scale size for S and was used Postwar. There was also an automatic male-to-=female preWar coupler that was made briefly. None of these hook with Lionel.. I understand that Grosman's sells an adapter. However, one trick was to use a Lionel tender with a Marx steamer, since the drawbars were compativble. The other was to make an idler car, wit ha Marx coupler on one side and a Lionel on the other.

Marx track is compatible with O27, except for the switches. These need to be tweaked to work with Lionel rollers. I describe the method on my webnsite in the Marx article, with an illustration.
Check the Marx articles on my website for more info

[Dave Farquhar]

Absolutely. I run Marx locomotives with a Lionel tender and cars all the time, and vice-versa. My track is a mixture of Lionel, Marx, and K-Line.

The transformers are mostly interchangeable too. The only gotcha is that Marx transformers don't have reverse or whistle buttons, so a Marx transformer doesn't give you the kind of control over a Lionel locomotive that a Lionel transformer does. And when you use a Lionel transformer with a Marx, the Lionel puts out a bit higher voltage than a Marx does, so if you're not careful with the throttle you can send the cheaper Marx locomotives running off the track.

Marx and Lionel couplers are incompatible, but I've replaced one of the trucks (wheel assemblies) on a Lionel gondola with a Marx to allow me to run a train with both types of cars.

[Anonymous]

As a kid, (early 60's) I had a train set I had believed to be Lionel but after looking over some classic train sets and components on the internet I found a transformer that looked very close to my original, it was a Louis Marx. To get to the point, I have just purchased a 1957 Lionel Blue and orange Diesel set and Now I want to purchase a marx set (like I owned). I beleiev they are both the same gage, not sure. Can these sets be mixed, i.e. track with different transformer etc?