Lionel 218 help

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Lionel 218 help
Posted by silentman on Saturday, July 01, 2017 9:28 AM

Hello all I have a Lionel 218 that i picked up at a show and it is not working at all. I cleaned and replaced the brushes and nothing. I removed the truck assembly to just concentrate on the motor. My limited ohm checking seems to show the commutator/armature are ok and that's about the best of my troubleshooting. One thing that is missing is the nylon washer that is supposed to go under the solder lug. Any help troubleshooting would be very appreciated

###looks like photbucket updated there terms so I can't post a pic. It is the 1959 version###

https://pix.sfly.com/R5DGSM

 

 

 

KRM
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Posted by KRM on Saturday, July 01, 2017 10:13 AM

I don't think it takes that nylon wsher with the three position E-unit. Only the two position motors used those. I would be looking for broken wires to and from the pick up through the e-unit.

See info here.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/200alco.htm

 

 

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Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

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Posted by silentman on Saturday, July 01, 2017 10:36 AM

It is possible to diagnose the motor without the e-unit correct? That's my goal at the moment

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Posted by cwburfle on Saturday, July 01, 2017 10:48 AM

Did you disconnect all the wires from the e-unit and elsewhere?
What sort of motor does it have?
Is it double wound or single wound.
While the 218 Locomotives left the factory with single wound motors (3 position e-unit), its common to find ALCOs that have been switched around.

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Posted by silentman on Saturday, July 01, 2017 10:56 AM

Yes it's all disconnected and I uploaded a picture in the above post. What determines double vs single wound? Yes I'm taking notes

KRM
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Posted by KRM on Saturday, July 01, 2017 11:02 AM

Per the picture, yours is a single wound motor.

I know you can test it out of the frame but I have to try to remember how. Bang Head

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Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

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Posted by cwburfle on Saturday, July 01, 2017 1:46 PM

I'd need a closer, sharper picture of the field to tell.
I will go with KRM's evaluation.

1 - there should not be any sort of insulating washer between that solder lug and the screw. It is there to provide a ground to chassis.

2 - you will need two test leads, connected to a power source. and a short piece of wire stripped on both ends.

3  - connect one end of the short wire to the solder tab that is between the brush holders. Connect the other end to one of the brush holders.

4 - connect one test lead to the frame of the motor (you can use the solder tab that is under the screw)

5 - connect the remaining test lead to the other brush holder.

The motor should run.

6 - Exchange the two wires collected to the brush holders.

The motor should run in the opposite direction.


On a double wound motor, you would be able to see two different colored wires wound on the field bobbin. There should be four wires comming out of the field. Two are normally twisted together rather tlightly (which may make them look like a single wire) and soldered to one brush holder. Sometimes one or more wires is broken off.

KRM
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Posted by KRM on Saturday, July 01, 2017 6:34 PM

cwburfle.

 Thanks you are spot on. Sucks to get old. I knew I knew how but it has been so long I forgot. Laugh

 

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Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

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Posted by silentman on Saturday, July 01, 2017 10:37 PM

Thanks for the help so far, I had to work late tonight and right back in Sunday morning. I will give it a go Sunday afternoon and let you know the verdict

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Posted by silentman on Sunday, July 02, 2017 4:43 PM

Brilliant! The motor works! My big mistake was I did not test it before I took it apart to clean and paint the frame so I just put it back together the way it was and nothing. So now I know the motor works perhaps some assistance hooking the e-unit up would be great. Here are some pics...Each yellow wire went to a brush holder and the black went to the solder tab between the brushes. The light and the roller connected to the tab on the other side of the e-unit. Hope this helps to diagnose. Thanks a bunch!!!

 

https://pix.sfly.com/jy7o_k

https://pix.sfly.com/H73G-H

https://pix.sfly.com/T02BTK

https://pix.sfly.com/Kt6AeJ

 

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Posted by cwburfle on Sunday, July 02, 2017 4:49 PM

Does the headlight work?
Does the e-unit cycle?

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Posted by silentman on Sunday, July 02, 2017 5:04 PM

When everything was hooked up like I shared nothing at all worked. When I unhooked the wires going to the motor and put power to the rollers yes the light came on and the e-unit cycled. Hope that makes sense

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Posted by cwburfle on Monday, July 03, 2017 8:24 AM

It is unfortunate that you did not test the loco before disassembling it.

Are you testing with leads or on a piece of track?

It is odd that the lights and e-unit would work when the motor is disconnected from the e-unit, but not when the wires are connected.
Did the circuit breaker trip? I am wondering if you have a short.

I see that you repainted your frame. Certain portions of the frame should be clean and free of paint because the frame acts as part of the electrical circuit.

In your photo the brush plate is not screwed down. Was it screwed down with the solder lug under one screw when you tested?

If so, here is something to try: 

With the truck mounted in the frame: 
Take that short piece of wire, and connect one end to that lug between the brush holders and the other end to a brush holder.
Take a piece of wire extend the wire from the collector assembly to the other brush holder.
Does it run now?
If not, take another piece of wire, attach one end to that solder lug under the screw, and attach the other end to an outside rail.  (assuming you are trying the loco on a piece of track)

If you are doing all your testing with test leads, then I'd guess the problem is bad ground path due to painting and/or dirt.  

KRM
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Posted by KRM on Monday, July 03, 2017 9:00 AM

I agree you need to insure good ground to and from the painted frame.

I also noticed that in the last picture the tab that should have cup washer 601-131, motor mount spring 1055-56 and a 600-133 speed nut is just bent over to keep it from falling off the frame. This is wrong those parts should be on both tabs front and back and the tabs should be straight up.

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Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

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Posted by silentman on Monday, July 03, 2017 9:05 AM

Progress, that allowed it to run around the track in one direction (guessing this was too bypass e-unit). I uploaded a pic hooked up the way you said with the e-unit not connected at all. So is there a short/bad wire going from the e-unit to the motor? Again I tested the e-unit by itself and it cycles properly. Just so I got this straight...two wires come out of the four fingers, one goes to a brush and the other to the center lug. The two finger piece has one wire going to the other brush? At least that's how it was hooked up. When I hook it up that way I get not a peep. Thanks again for all your help

 

https://pix.sfly.com/Aiev2M

https://pix.sfly.com/xqq6JJ

If it is blurry I hooked it up based on your first example (the light stopped working but not important at the moment)

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Posted by silentman on Monday, July 03, 2017 9:12 AM

KRM

I agree you need to insure good ground to and from the painted frame.

I also noticed that in the last picture the tab that should have cup washer 601-131, motor mount spring 1055-56 and a 600-133 speed nut is just bent over to keep it from falling off the frame. This is wrong those parts should be on both tabs front and back and the tabs should be straight up.

 

I agree Kev when you look at the book but I have other engines set up the same way with just one speed nut holding it in while the bent piece acts as a way to maneuver it in? Maybe Indifferent

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Posted by cwburfle on Monday, July 03, 2017 9:44 AM

Lionel made motors with a hook (bent over post) on one end in the 1960's.
What does your frame look like? Are there one or two slots (one on each side) by the opening in the frame for the motor.
Usually the frames that are designed to accept the motor with a hook on one end only have one.

Update: I looked at your photo. I agree with the others.  It does appear that your motor has two posts and a matching frame. Someone bent the one post. I don't know that I would try to straighten it. Sometimes when one does something like that, the metal breaks off.

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Posted by cwburfle on Monday, July 03, 2017 9:51 AM

So the problem is with the e-unit.
It could just need cleaning.
I have also had E-units where the wires were broken inside the insulation where you cannot see.

There has been quite a bit written on servicing e-units. Also some good youtube videos.
I cannot start on that right now.

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Posted by silentman on Monday, July 03, 2017 11:09 AM

Got it, I'm gonna clean, rewire and hope for the best. Thanks again for all your help!!!!

Real quick question about a Lionel 1666. To remove the piece that has the shoes and thin strip of metal...I need to attach a new wire to that. How do you remove the piece that is in between the frame to resolder the wire to it? Is there a trick so the frame doesn't get all out of wack? Thank you again, I greatly appreciate your assistance!

KRM
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Posted by KRM on Monday, July 03, 2017 11:17 AM

cwburfle

 
 

  I don't know that I would try to straighten it. Sometimes when one does something like that, the metal breaks off.

 

 

Good point it would for sure snap off with my luck. Laugh

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Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, July 03, 2017 12:17 PM

If the motor works, the e-unit cycles reliably, and the two are wired together properly, that leaves the fingers, which of course should press against the drum.

But they may wear or get bent.  If they are not making reliable contact, you may be able to see the problem with close inspection.  Beyond that, with the voltage turned up, you can try poking the ends of the fingers with a toothpick to try to find one that is not quite touching.

If you do find one that needs tightening, it may be fixable without taking the e-unit apart.  They are not easy to put back together.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by silentman on Monday, July 03, 2017 5:01 PM

Thanks Bob, I found  post of you explaining how to bend the fingers with a paper clip and a little screwdriver. I'll give it a try. How do you determine wether the fingers are touching with putting voltage to it and a toothpick?

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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, July 03, 2017 8:59 PM

Get the e-unit into a position that should connect the motor to the track.  (That is every other position.  If you can't tell which one would run the motor, just test it in any two consecutive positions at least.)  Turn the voltage up enough that the locomotive should move if it were working properly.

Then start poking the fingers.  Press the tip of each finger against the drum.  You may have to take the e-unit loose to get access to all of them, depending on how it's mounted.  If so, you'll have to ground the e-unit frame to the locomotive frame (or the outside rails) to get it to step.  But the motor should work whether or not the e-unit is grounded.

If you're lucky enough to get it to move, then go after the finger that you last touched to restore its contact with the drum.  The worst situation is that more than one finger is not touching in every position that you try.  Then you may have to resort to tightening all the fingers until it works.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by cwburfle on Tuesday, July 04, 2017 5:54 AM

As I wrote earlier, I have run into an "e-unit problem" that was caused by one of the wires being broken inside the insulation, usually a very short distance from where it is soldered to the motor. Most times I could see some green corrosion / heavy oxidation on the bare wire.
Also, I have seen a lot of e-units where there was oxidation preventing conductivity. A careful cleaning of the drum and rotating the drum a good number of times often will clear the oxidation away. No bending required.

Being that your frame was so rusty, these are real possibilities.

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Posted by silentman on Tuesday, July 04, 2017 8:01 AM

Ok so as frustration mounts I decided to take out a working reverse unit with the same configuration out of a working train.....Nothing! Based on the troubleshooting so far the wiring/mechanical seems to be fine so something is shorting somewhere? The only thing im missing is the metal lockwasher that is supposed to be there according to the book to mount the reverse unit Crying

 

***Updated***

I shared a pic of how cwburfle had me hook it up. In this case it runs in one direction bypassing the reverse unit but no light. If I unhook everything (the two leads bypassing reverse unit pictured) just to get the reverse unit and light to come on while on the track....nothing. If I hook the transformer lead to the "hot" tab on the reverse unit and other lead frm transformer to frame it will turn on headlight and cycle reverse unit. Hope that helps

 

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Posted by cwburfle on Tuesday, July 04, 2017 8:54 AM

If you aren't getting the light or e-unit but the motor runs in that configuration, then either your splice under the wire nut is faulty, or you don't have a good chassis ground. Add a wire between the solder tab that is under the brushplate cover screw and the metal side of the e-unit itself. Does it cycle now?
Yes - confirms bad ground
No - indicates bad power.

Do the same to the shiney metal side of the lamp socket.

looking at your picture, I do not see where you cleaned the paint off of the chassis in the area around the motor post where the cup washer rubs. That is one of the paths for ground. Had the other post not been bent over, the paint should have been cleared away from that area too.
Underneath, the area around the mounting hole for the collector truck should be cleaned too.
These are the areas that provide the "ground" to the frame.

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Posted by silentman on Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:03 AM

ok great will give it a try....almost over

KRM
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Posted by KRM on Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:22 AM

silentman

ok great will give it a try....almost over

 

 

Aren’t toy trains Fun!!!   Laugh  Bang Head Wink
If it is a 218, where is the horn and battery holder that is stuffed in there??? Even more fun to hook up! Surprise

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Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL. Whistling

 

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Posted by silentman on Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:31 AM

KRM
Aren’t toy trains Fun!!! Laugh Bang Head Wink

I absolutely love it. I need a relay and didn't feel like spending more then I paid for the 218 and the dummy unit. Lol. So for future frame repaints is there a special kind of paint to use to help ground it?

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Posted by cwburfle on Tuesday, July 04, 2017 9:31 AM

Judging by the appearance of his frame, I would guess that a battery leaked, and corroded the battery holder (bracket). It was removed and thrown away.
Silentman has the power lead from the collector truck routed through one of the mounting holes for the battery bracket.

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