Bearing Ball And Armature Placement in a Lionel 52 Fire Car

[MickeyDemian]

Thank you cwburfle for your help answering my questions.

[cwburfle]

Did a little homework. Modern era Lionel did not release service manual pages on their firecar until supplement 42, issued 1999. I think that is quite a few years after their first re-release of the fire car. Their drawing of the assembly is fairly clear. Note that some changes were made to the design of the car, and part numbers are different.

If you have not already done so, I suggest going to the Lionel site and downloading all the sections of the manual. You never know when they will decide to take it down. Some of us paid good money to get printed copies before it was put online.
I can be challanging to find the right material because there are so many supplements, but it's good to have.

[cwburfle]

What is there to keep the lower shaft centered right now?
Can you post a picture?

There should be a bearing there. it is pushed into the top of the well, so it's about flush with the metal casting.

[MickeyDemian]

So would you add the 41-27 nylon armature shaft bushing to unit even though it is not printed as such on the Lionel 52 diagram?  The motors appear so similar and it appears that the Lionel 52 schematic has been misprinted already with the bearing ball appearing below the shaft.  It may be common sense to a seasoned repair person but to a beginner like myself I look at the diagram as gospel.

[cwburfle]

First, please accept my apologies for referencing the #60 trolley drawings. You did ask about the #52 fire car. The basic chassis of both pieces are similar, but not identical.
I checked two #52 chassis, and took a look at a more complete reprint of the Lionel service manual.

My #52 fire car chassis have the 41-8 plastic thrust bearing at the bottom of the well where the armature goes. There is also bearing at the top of the well. So the drawing of that portion of the #60 chassis matches my #52 chassis.

The bearing at the top of the well should not contact the windings. The 41-8 thrust bearing limits how far down the armature can go., 
 
Some black #41 style brush plates have a metal insert in the armature shaft hole. In my experience, if there is a metal insert, there may not be room to insert the 50-102 ball bearing. Try it. If there isn't space, leave it out.

Unfortunately, there are errors in the Lionel factory service manual.
And Lionel did make modifications to the construction of some items over time.
Often Lionel issued revised pages to the manual. But that did not always happen. 
Somtimes I have to wonder which version of the page did the outfits reprinting the manual get.

Once again, I am sorry for mixing up the two sets of drawings.

[cwburfle]

Let me double check a #52 fire car chassis just to be certain. 
Don't know why I was checking #60 trolley chassis.

[MickeyDemian]

So.....When I look at the schematic for the lionel 60 trolley in my Greenbergs Manual for repair, it shows the bearing ball at the top of the shaft in the brush plate, and also a nylon armature shaft bushing on the bottom side of the shaft where it contacts the windings.  The schematic for the Lionel 52 does not show this bushing (and also the bearing ball at the bottom of the shaft) although the motors are quite similar.  Is it wise for me just to purchase an armature bushing and use it or is this difference a design change that Lionel made and I should stay true to the original design?  Can it be said that these schematics are always not complete?

[cwburfle]

  In looking at the schematic that Olsen's Toy Trains has online I get the impression from the picture that the Bearing Ball is placed on the bottom side of the armature in the armature well.

Most of the information posted in the Olsens free online library was taken directly from the Lionel factory service manual, including the information on the #60 trolley.  Olsens also created some pages.

Maybe it's because I am already familar Lionel's general construction practices, and specifically the trolley. The drawing looks like it shows the ball going into the brush cover to me.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/opcar/acc60p3.pdf

[MickeyDemian]

  In looking at the schematic that Olsen's Toy Trains has online I get the impression from the picture that the Bearing Ball is placed on the bottom side of the armature in the armature well.   You made a good point though, and I will try the ball at the top of the armature in the brush plate--it sure makes more sense to place it there.

Thank You

[cwburfle]

I just checked two junk postwar #60 trolley chassis. They do NOT take a bearing ball below the armature shaft.
There should be a #41-8 bearing stud pressed into the chassis, centered below the armature shaft. They do wear, and can be replaced.

The ball bearing goes in the brushplate.

[MickeyDemian]

Hello All:

  In rehabbing a Lionel 52 Fire Car I found that the bearing ball that is shown to be below the armature shaft in the schematic was missing.  In examining the armature well all I noticed was a plastic type plug in the bottom hole in the cast frame.  In this manner the armature would spin freely but had vertical play.  I was told it was necessary to have a bearing ball at the bottom of the armature shaft so I purchased the correct one from Jeff Kane and dropped it in the hole.  Now the armature turns rather tight.  My question is if there is a special way to place the bearing ball in the bottom of the armature well?  It seems to me it would not stay centered by itself but fall to one side or the other possibly causing my binding problem.  

Tapping any experience with this fix would be appreciated.

Thank You