TMCC or DCS help

[rinzana]

Hello,
I am sure this has been discussed many, many times here before, but I am not able to find any current discussions, so here goes.
Let me start off by saying, that I currently own one ZW. I do not own any TMCC or DCS equipment, nor do I own any TMCC or PS2 equipped locomotives. I do have quite a large collection of Postwar Lionel and a decend collection of PS1 locomotives.
I am currently working on the design of a 11'x24' layout and would prefer to use Gargraves trackage with Gragraves, Ross and Curtis turnouts. I also have almost all of the origional Lionel, and a few AF operating accessories that I woul dlike to incorporate. I also own a Bowser 32" turntable that will be used.
Ofcourse as time goes on and I expand on my motive power I will add TMCC and PS2 equipped motive power, and I'll want to be able to take advantages of the new technology as I take the engines out of thier boxes.
I have watched both TM Videos on TMCC and DCS, and I am going to purchase the TMCC and Beyond video right after I post this.
So here I will start the questions:
1. Where to start? I will need sections of the layout to be able to operate all four types of engines(Conventional(postwar Lionel), TMCC Compatible, PS1 and PS2) such as in the turntable and transfer table area. And be able to control those locomotives out the thier running loops.
2. Do I need a Powermaster to connect my ZW?
3. Should I stick with pure sine wave transformers, such as ZW's or should I mix ZW's and newer transformers.
4. I am aware that I can connect a TMCC base into a DCS TIU is that the way to go? What do you do when u have more then one TIU? Will I still be able to run more then one conventional or PS1 loco(As this constitues most of my collection)?
5. I am completely lost as to what a Block Power Controller does. I saw the on-line TMCC manual of the use of a BPC but this only confused me more.

I think that is all I have at this time. Any and all hlp is appreciated. I have just recently moved to a entirely new area(Cherry Hill area of New Jersey), and so far have not found any local trainshops that are willing to assist me.
Thank You,
RInzana

[spankybird]

Hi Rlnzana,

Welcome to the CTT forum


If you are planning on running PS 2 engines in command mode, then DCS is your only choose. With adding the Lionel command base to it, you can also run TMCC engines in command mode. With DCS you can also run any engine in conventional mode.

BTW – even though TMCC starts at about $100.00, by the time you add all that you need to run MTH in conventional mode and other add on, you spend about the same amount of money, but it will not control MTH engines in command.

Which ZW do you have, new or post war [?] The new ones have power bricks.

I have a 10’ by 20’ layout and use only one TUI. Check my web page (click on the icon below).

Since you are just in the planning stages, be sure to use ‘STAR’ type wiring. Put a feeder line about every 10 to 15 feet of track.

You can add a AIU for controlling your accessory and turnouts if you wish.

Hope this is a start.

tom

[CB&Q]

[:D] At this time you don't need a power master. When you are ready to go to tmcc use whats called TPC- track power controller & get the 400 watt model.A tpc is same as power master I have this system and the block power controlers aswell all a bpc is a way to shut power off to the track same as a toggle switch- on or off. They work well in yards& engine tracks in or out of a round house. As far as MTH DCS goes you have to keep the TIU out IN the open & mount it in a vertical position A fellow modeler has just helped me out with this very system I would strongly suggest you go tmcc & get your feet wet on wiring as this system is not tempermental or as picky as DCS is . Okay I'm gonna get flak on that remark but it is true !! ON hooking TMCC to TIU yes it is the best way but don't run transformer power thru TIU you can power TIU using an external power supply hooked to aux power input TO give TIU power To send digital signal to various blocks of track AS TIU is Limited to amount of power It can handle . I know this is a lot of info to digest thats why I urge you to take it slow and work your way up to all the fancy stuff. You're on correct path as far as getting TMCC video also keep coming to this forum as there are alot of fellow modlers who are even more savy at this than I am!! AS far as hobby shops go for help TRy using MTH web site at www.mthtrains.com they have a list of dealers nation wide and hopefully in your area that will be of help also try www.lionel.com both are good sites.

[Anonymous]

Stpaul,

" A fellow modeler has just helped me out with this very system I would strongly suggest you go tmcc & get your feet wet on wiring as this system is not tempermental or as picky as DCS is . Okay I'm gonna get flak on that remark but it is true !!

Stpaul-HERE IS THE FLAK!!!!!! :)

In most cases, DCS will just connect and work correctly. Once in a while it gets interesting (as it has with your layout and with my large floor layout in the photographs on the other thread).

I agree that a Power Master is not the way to go. It eliminates the prospect of operating most PS-1 and some QSI equipped locomotives as the chopped wave form used to simulate the varying of voltage is not acceptable to these particular electronics.

If Rinzana wants to run only conventional, the TPC is a very good choice, both from a current carring capacity standpoint and from a compatible wave form standpoint (it is PS-1 and QSI friendly). If he should want to go to with DCS someday, bear in mind that DCS includes two variable voltage channels which would render the TPC redundant (with the caveate that the TPC does have many more speed steps than DCS).

I started out in command control with DCS, run TMCC only with the DCS handheld, and find the Cab-1 harder to use (I think this is, to some extent, because I started with DCS as opposed to TMCC).

My first DCS experience was on a loop of track on the floor and I had it up and running in about 10 minutes (transformer was a pre-war Type "K").

When we do demos, we have more issues with getting TMCC to work due to ground issues, etc. TMCC also has issues with metal structures. Both systems have their challenges.

Anyway, consider yourself flakked (if that is a word)!!!!

Did you try the light bulb yet?

[Anonymous]

so u've moved into my area. what places have u contacted? i know one guy who owns a small store call track 33 who may be able to help you, i know he knows about tmcc, but not sure if he knows the dcs. just tryng to help, i've been out of the loop for awhile, and boy have i missed a bunch of stuff.

[rinzana]

Hello, Spankybird, StSaul, RAK402 and Jocili,
Thank you all for a quick reply. But of course this will only raise more questions. But let me answer on first. I have a Postwas ZW not a newer model.
My brother and I had a layout in his attic in the house that I grew up in, he bought from our parents after they retired to Fla. But hat's another story. That layout was 20'x40' and consisted at first of all Lionel 027 track as that is what we had on hand. This was powered by the ZW. The next addition was two loops of Gargraves track powered by a Z4000. We did still have trouble getting some of the PS1 locomotives' sound systems to operate correctly even with the Z4000.
On this layout I would rather not experience those troubles, especially when I do plan to show the loyout off to some HO people that my wife knows live in this area.
I'll have to look up the shop, track 33, and see how far they are away from me. I do know about a shop in a strip mall, I believe on route 70, and in looking in the store locater in the back of CTT, there are others in my area. The gentleman in the strip mall wasn't very much help, or I may not have even been asking to right questions at the time.
So from reading the responses, I guess the way to go is to do both. Connect the TMCC into "a" DCS TIU. If I remember correcty, from the videos, you only need one TMCC command base, no matter how many TIU's you may have.
Next question on the TMCC video Rich Melvin claims that you shouldn't have isolated outside rails, as this is where the command signal is carried. I understand that both rails cannot be isloated, but shouldn't it be OK to isolate one of the rails?
Is there a limitation on the number of conventional engines you can run at the same time using DCS? as there is with TMCC?
Thanks Again
RInzana

[CB&Q]

rinzana-you can have one outside rail isolated and no problems will ocur.which is whats nice about gargraves track as you can use other side of outside rail to use to trigger diff accesories etc .

[Anonymous]

Rinzana,

An old ZW is an excellent power supply for use with DCS. Just make sure that you add a 10 amp, quick acting fuse in the "Red" wire between the transformer and the TIU.

You are correct: One Command Base for the entire layout. It will be connected to only one of up to five TIU's. TMCC locomotives will be programmed through the remote to be controlled out of that one TIU.

DCS includes the equivalent of two Powermasters. This would allow you to operate two conventional locomotives at once (on separate tracks or blocks). DCS can be used in conjunction with the Z4000 and the Z4000 reciever. When the Z4000 is connected to the two "Fixed" channels, DCS can contol the voltage on the Z4000 as well, yielding conventional control of up to four conventional locomotives simultaneously.

I have run TMCC with and without the two outside rails insulated from each other and, in my case, have found no difference. Very solid control either way. I will defer to Mr. Melvin's expertise as he has been operating TMCC for much longer than I.

[rinzana]

Hi,
Well I guess some old time Lionelers will say that I should be accused of sacreledge!! I went to J&B Trains, just down the road, from my new home town. He had both a TMCC and a DCS loop available with all the different engine combinations available. He was an "old timer" but did a excellent job of explaining both systems to me. I ended up walking out with a Proto 2.0 RailKing PRR Consolidation, and I'm on the waiting list for a DCS system. After he let me "play" with his trains, it became clear that connecting the TMCC into the DCS is the way to go. The DCS controller was easier to use, and I felt confident in the roller control system, then the turn know on the Lionel CAB-1. I also liked the high-tech look of the digital display.
I can't say that I am "out of the smoke" yet. He said he can "program" my TIU and make it a "super TIU", thus converting all four outputs to be fixed. I dont know if this is that way for me to go or not. I'll need more advice in that arena. Also what would be the advantages of me using a Z4000 and it's reciever? would that mean a separate handheld controller? Can I operate DCS trains and conventional trains on the same "loops" w/o having the DCS trains stop when running the conventional trains to a stop?
Thanks Again
RInzana

[spankybird]

HI Rinzana,

You will love your new Railking PRR Consolidation. These are great little engines, great smokers, and a lot of pulling power for it’s size.

I many times will run a conventional engine on the same track at the same time I am running one of my PS2 engines in command mode. I do run my TIU from a fix power supply and have converted (re-programmed) all 4 channels to fix. I then control my conventional engine by the transformer instead of the remote.

tom

[rinzana]

Hi Tom,
I have seen your layout, and mine will be about the same size. I am thinking about the old doughnut shaped style as opposed to a U shape. I keep tring todesign a U or pathway layout, in RR Track, to make a decent sized layout, but once I add in the 32" turntable and it's spur tracks I can't come up with anything that "looks" decent to me. I also want to have most of the Lionel accessories with in reach, as they always need tweaking when they are operating.
My main concern about running conventional and a DCS train on the same loop, is if want to stop a train, or neutral a train in front of an accessory, only to find that the DCS train has slowed to a near crawl. I may be missing something in the transformer set-up that you described, and am still noy uinderstanding the fixed thng. Are you saying that you have two transformers providing power to the same "loop" one fixed at 18 volts and the other variable via the ZW? Do you have the "loop" sectioned into blocks? so when you lower the ZW it only affects the "block" the conventional engine is on? How do you control what "block" you are altering the power on?
RInzana

[spankybird]

Your TUI can either run on track voltage or fix (auxiliary) power. I run mine of fix power. I use a Radio Shack 18 volt, 1 amp power supply. With DCS there isn’t any need for blocks on one channel.

If I stop the conventional engine via the transformer, just by putting it in neutral, The PS2 engine will continual to run until I give it a command from the remote.

If you have your TUI set up with a variable voltage channel, you would leave your transformer set at 18 volts and control both the conventional and the PS2 engine from the remote. You would just have to toggle the remote from the Command engine to track A for the conventional engine.

Hope that makes it more clear.

tom

[Anonymous]

Rinzana,

You are going in the best of all possible directions. DCS with a Lionel Command Base will allow you to run almost anything ever made for three rail A/C O gauge. The only current exception would be TMCC lash-ups.

If you have the Z4000 and the remote recievers, the DCS handheld can control the remote recievers as well. I have not tried this yet, but I know of some who have.

You can run Conventional, PS-2 in Command, and TMCC in Command-all on the same track at the same time. For me, it takes a lot of concentration to do this, but I have done it several times. It can all be controlled by the DCS handheld.

Tom's suggestion of the RadioShack transformer is a very good one. He has been at this a while and his advice is sound.

Please keep us posted on your progress!

[rinzana]

Hi,
Well believe it or not, I have found a source for the passenger cars for that Railking engine I bought yesterday. Unfortunately, ny pumy test track is 027 Lionel, and the Test PS2 engine I just bought is 031, I may test it on the little ovel and see what happens. All I need now is that fast burning fuse from Radio Shack, while I;m there I may also look into that transformer.
Thanks again,
RInzana

[spankybird]

Don’t worry about the track being 027. My whole layout is 027 and I run many large engines on it.

Two tricks to run an 031 on 027.
1. It may run fine as it is
2. I use the K-line low profile 027 turnouts. Some cars and engines will not clear the switch motor of a Lionel turnout.
3. Make sure the tender harness is long enough. On MTH, there is almost always extra cord in the tender. Just remover the cover of the tender and pull out extra cord.

Well a guess that’s three.

Have fun.
tom

[rinzana]

Hi Tom,
Thanks again, the small loop is just a play toy for my son, so he had a layout when we were living in an apartment. It fit nicely under the couch. I am hoping to get all this DCS and TMCC stuff running on that before I really start on the large layout. I really dont want to set up the large layout to find that I have to start ripping up sections of Gargraves to add in more feeder wires or to isolate a specific block.
Oh, I got the 5 car passenger set that goes with that PRR Consolidation engine. So now I have the complete set.
If you know the specs or the item number on that transformer from Radio Shack, I'll start working on getting one of those. I'll also need some more info on the fuse.
Thanks Again
RInzana

[spankybird]

Hi Rlnzana,

Here is one thread on Fast Acting Circuit Breakers. I use this in place of the fuses. You only have to reset them.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=13672&REPLY_ID=111008#111008

The Radio Shake transformer number is 273-1690. It is a 24-18 volt 1 amp supply. Set it a 18 volts. You will need an adaptaplug “M” which comes free with the transformer.

tom

[rinzana]

Hi Tom,
Oh so the AC adapter only supplies power to the TUI not the track. I did read the posts on the circuit breaker, and I was also thinking the same thing that the power is origionally coming from the transformer to the track. So having the breaker between the Transformer and the TIU is where it should go.
Thanks
RInzana

[rinzana]

Hi Tom,
I am not able to find that breaker on the Newark web page. They do have two others I'll include the part number below:
W67-X2Q50-10
W67-X2Q50-5
The only way I could find these two was to do a search on 30ms or faster trip time.
Let me know.
Thanks
Rich

[spankybird]

Rinzana – It looks like those brakers are to large and it looks like Newar no longer carries the breakers. Here is another chose. It comes with the box, you only have to wire it up.

Here is the link to Scotts Odds-n-Ends

http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/circuit_breakers.htm

I used the 10 Amp breakers.

Yes it should go between the Transformer (ZW) and the TIU not between the track and the TIU.

And yes the R/S power supply only powers the TIU not the Track.

tom

[rinzana]

Thanks Again Tom,
I'll put an order in for one.
Rich