Hello Chris,
I have been researching the pick up shoes, and I found there is already a thread on these from a past CTT forum. I have added it to my Favorites, but don't know how to link it here. It is under " prewar O-27 streamlined steam engine loses it's middle rail pick up shoe".
You may be able to "Google" it. Pictures, and everything... A treasure trove of information !
Paul
Dude !!! So, cool ! That's Great ! You have turned the corner on this repair . O.k.
So, run this as it is to loosen up, and break it in. You may need to go in there and clean it as it carbons up. Only run it a few minutes at a time, check for excessive heat at the brushes . Probably want to order those brushes to get them coming in. You can keep working with what you have for now. The goals is that it runs smoothly, and reliably every time you jump it.
I would like to suggest an outline . But, it is up to you on how to proceed.
My suggested steps are :
1. Continue to run, and loosen up.
2. Address the pick up shoe problem ( so you can track test it )
3. Assemble the loco without side rods, or E-unit. You can hook up the head light, and smoke unit to the wire coming from the pick up shoes.
At this point, you can take a breather, and let your son enjoy this train, and continue breaking it in at the same time.
4. Start adding the side rods, and valve gear until it is cosmetically complete. Check by hand for tightness after adding each part
5. Lastly, after everything else has been assembled, and the engine has proven itself to be smooth and reliable, add the E-unit. We are not sure about the E-unit, it is probably o.k., but make sure all other problems have been resolved first.
Oh, and my thoughts on the pick up shoe continuity issue :
These copper shoes are only making a mechanical connection on a leaf spring. Do not attempt to remove the fiber collector plate. It may crumble. You can try to shoot a contact cleaner in where the shoes touch the spring. I have used Radio Shack's foam spray "for drum type T.V. Tuners" on e-unit drums, and it works great.
You may also have grease and gunk in this area, being that it is so close to the drive axles. In which case, something stronger may be needed. Possibly a solvent. Perhaps someone out there can suggest a solvent that won't damage the fiber collector plate ?
Once again, Congrats !!!
Get it running well in both directions before reintroducing the E-unit.
Rob
Success of a sort!
The last set of wheels were a bit tight, so I popped them out a tad. I cleaned off the communicator and gave the jump method another shot. I get movement at the halfway point of the throttle.
Now I can't get Flickr to work for me, but trust me, it worked.
So now what? Rewire the reversing switch and hope for the best?
.....
just wanted to give you the part number for the early 2026's brushes.
1661E-29. Get two.
You have continuity at all points, except the pick up shoes.
Keep cleaning, and try to "awaken" this dormant motor. This is a real thing.
Chris,
increase the voltage. The "hum" may become a "buzz" .
Turn the wheels while applying power. Clean as needed.
Repeat.
I know it defies all logic, and common sense, but I've seen it work.
And on two different " Dead as a Door nail" engines.
Great input, Bob and Firelock.
Chris, I view the carbon filth on the commutator as a sign that SOMETHING is happening. You have a current flow from one brush through the armature out the other brush and through the field coil to frame.
These old trains don't always want to cooperate. Keep at it !
The copper pieces attached to the armature are called the "commutator." As Firelock says, clean them with a pencil eraser. The brushes are the black cylinders that rub on the commutator. They are carbon all the way through; so no scrubbing will expose any metal. There is normally no reason to clean them.
With the brush holder off, as your picture shows, you can check the armature electrically: Make three resistance measurements by probing each of the three possible pairs of commutator segments. All three measurements should give the same resistance value.
Bob Nelson
Chris, Both my 1688 and my American Flyer engines took a few cleanings, and fussing around to get them to behave. Remember that your engine probably has not run in years. Plus, it is recovering from major surgery.
Other considerations:
1. Double check your wiring. One brush wired to the pick up shoes. One brush wired to the field coil Input wire.
2. Check your mechanism for tightness. If it is too hard to turn, the motor won't be able to overcome the needed torque.
I remember both engines I revived did take numerous cleanings, and they would get FILTHY. And when they did start to run, the brushes would get real hot. Eventually, they both straightened up, and are running very well. I would say to keep at it.
Also, try setting the engine up on blocks, so the wheels can turn freely without any extra drag. Power it up the way we've mentioned, and try turning the drive wheels. You may not get much at first. Then you may get one pulse of the motor. Then , a little more, and if you keep at it, it will probably come around.
I have seen this exact scenario.
Man, those copper armature plates are dirty! Here's what you do, use a pencil eraser and rub the copper with it 'till it shines like a new penny. Yes, this really does work. Use a wooden toothpick to clean the gaps between the plates, and you can finish up the job with some alcohol on a Q-tip.
As far as the brushes, cleaning them usually doen't work too well. You can rub them with alcohol to get any crud off, but sanding them isn't recommended. If they're really nasty the best thing to do is replace them.
You're getting some good advice here, I can't really add anything else.
One last thing; when I was faced with a dead E-unit I removed it and soldered the pick up wires directly to the appropriate places on the motor. Worked like a champ, the motor came right back to life. Of course, the way I've got it set up it runs forward only, but I'll deal with that at a later date.
Sure wish I was there looking over your shoulder.
PS: The brush on the right looks OK, but the one on the left looks pretty beat, I'd consider replacing them both if you can.
Postwar Paul We are all saying the same things, but in different ways. Chris, 1. Place one transformer lead on the brush terminal you have wired to the pick up shoes. 2. Your second brush has a jumper going to the field coil INPUT wire. 3. The other end of the field coil is already grounded to frame in manufacturing, so touch the other lead to frame. So, just one to frame, one to one brush. I've got me fingers crossed. Paul and, yes, these are test leads, or jumpers from your throttle. Try with about half power,you may also need to bump it up a hair. You should at least get buzzing. If you do , see if you can give it a nudge to get it going. Let it run for a minute or two, to get used to working for a living.
We are all saying the same things, but in different ways.
1. Place one transformer lead on the brush terminal you have wired to the pick up shoes.
2. Your second brush has a jumper going to the field coil INPUT wire.
3. The other end of the field coil is already grounded to frame in manufacturing, so touch the other lead to frame.
So, just one to frame, one to one brush.
I've got me fingers crossed.
and, yes, these are test leads, or jumpers from your throttle. Try with about half power,you may also need to bump it up a hair. You should at least get buzzing. If you do , see if you can give it a nudge to get it going. Let it run for a minute or two, to get used to working for a living.
I followed these instructions and got a mild hum, a few sparks from the point of contact on the frame, and no movement of the wheels. With all that connected, I gave it a push around the table and still nothing.
I note that the surface of the motor looks a little dirty even after cleaning. I tried scrubbing down the brushes with fine sanding/polish sticks, but I cannot seem to get to the point of clean metal.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/105547860@N03/32235485056/in/dateposted/
I do appreciate everyone's input. Thank you.
don't forget to lubricate:
1. The spur gears on the side, and the posts they spin on
2. Drive axles
3. A tiny drop on each end of the armature, at the bearing
4. Grease on the driver gears
If you get it going, only run a couple of minutes at a time. Then let it rest. The brushes will probably run hot at first until everything settles in.
I have some ideas regarding your pick up shoes, when we get to that point.
With the E unit completely removed, place a jumper between one field coil post and one brush post, one transformer lead to the motor frame, apply some power to the transformer and touch the second transformer lead to the second field coil post. The motor should run, just as cwb outlined.
swede
cwburfle cwburfle I think you need to perform the most basic test. Disconnect the wires from the e-unit (reversing switch) to the brushes and field. Attach a jumper wire between one brush holder and the field. Attach test leads to the other brush holder and the chassis. Does the motor run? A week ago I recommended that the original poster perform a basic test on his motor, bypassing everything. I see no indication that the test was done.
cwburfle I think you need to perform the most basic test. Disconnect the wires from the e-unit (reversing switch) to the brushes and field. Attach a jumper wire between one brush holder and the field. Attach test leads to the other brush holder and the chassis. Does the motor run?
I think you need to perform the most basic test. Disconnect the wires from the e-unit (reversing switch) to the brushes and field. Attach a jumper wire between one brush holder and the field. Attach test leads to the other brush holder and the chassis. Does the motor run?
A week ago I recommended that the original poster perform a basic test on his motor, bypassing everything. I see no indication that the test was done.
Is it still possible to perform this test with the E-Unit completely off, or do I need to partially hook it up?
Are those test leads you mentioned coming from the throttle?
CJ Meyers Just my 2 cents, but I feel potential mechanical issues have been overlooked. Can he even spin the weels by hand. He did take the wheels off, and re-pressing and proper quartering is questionable. Remove all side rods and see if you can spin the mechanism by hand.
Just my 2 cents, but I feel potential mechanical issues have been overlooked. Can he even spin the weels by hand. He did take the wheels off, and re-pressing and proper quartering is questionable. Remove all side rods and see if you can spin the mechanism by hand.
The train rolls with moderate resistance. It certainly does not freewheel. I have not yet put the side rods on.
cwburfle What is the resistance of the field coil?What is the resistance of the armature?
What is the resistance of the field coil?What is the resistance of the armature?
With the Ohms set at 200, one probe on the end of the field coil and the other on the body, I get 1.8.
There was no continuity from any of the 3 plates the brushes contact to the shaft of the armature. The resistance between any two segments of the armature plates is 1.6 (Ohms set at 200).
I would delete this post if there were a way to do that.
Yes, essentially this is the same test.
as what?
thinking about the problem with your 2026. Been running mine today, it helps me think. I am hearing very clearly in your posts that you are not getting continuity from the pick up shoes. You have mentioned this twice. This is a problem that will need to be addressed to run this train on the track. The bigger issue is : does the motor run ?
So, if you can " Hotwire " it, as I mentioned previously. This should produce results, the motor running. If it does not, we have something above and beyond a normal repair.
It could be something like cwburfle was inquiring about, the resistance readings on the field , and armature. He may be able to help with what the expected readings SHOULD be.
Or, it could be something like side rod binding. The 2026 is an extremely free rolling engine. You should be able to spin the drivers with very little effort.
But, so far we have been testing it on the track, and we don't have good continuity from the pick up shoes.
I am hoping that is all it is.
I am looking at my 2026. It's hard to see in there, but there may be something with the way those shoes mechanically touch to transmit the current . It looks like they are touching a leaf spring. If the wire is attached to the spring... we may have a cheesy connection. Let's see how the "Hotwire" test goes.
It may well be the pick up wire.
O.k. So, take two wires from your transformer posts(one from each post). Set your transformer about halfway, touch one wire to the brush you have connected to the pick up shoes. Touch the other to the frame. Any signs of life ?
You should have lift off.
If that works, it would indicate a problem coming up from the pick up shoe.
oh, and maybe set it up on a couple of blocks, so the wheels are up in the air, and not touching anything
a.k.a. The "Hotwire Test"
Postwar Paul Can you send a picture of how you have it wired now ? And check these points for continuity: 1. Pickup shoe to brush it is wired to 2. Brush to brush 3. The second brush(the one wired to field coil) to frame 4. The end of the field coil wire to frame Paul and when I say "brush", I mean just the terminal the wire is hooked to
Can you send a picture of how you have it wired now ? And check these points for continuity:
1. Pickup shoe to brush it is wired to
2. Brush to brush
3. The second brush(the one wired to field coil) to frame
4. The end of the field coil wire to frame
and when I say "brush", I mean just the terminal the wire is hooked to
My E-unit is out I not connected, so here goes as close as I can:
1) Have have two pick-up shoes, one fore & one aft. I checked for continuity from each of these to the wire that comes up from the bottom of the train. I get sketchy continuity from the front one (goes from 000 to 1000 making stops all over the place), and no continuity from the rear shoe.
2) Brush to brush is good.
3) Field coil brush to frame is good.
4) Field coil wire (the part with no coating) to frame is good.
For what it's worth, I checked for continuity in the wires and attachment points on the e-Unit and got nothing.
I gave it a push or four, but it still didn't want to budge.
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