2 Rail TMCC Hobby Shop Layout ?

[Anonymous]

The reason why I made the inquiry is that I'm interested in Atlas "O" Scale 2-Rail TMCC Diesels which have Railsounds like horn, bell, and diesel sounds with elector-couplers. I live in the Dallas area. In an effort to clear up some facts, below are the features on the Atlas 2-Rail TMCC Diesels.




3-Rail & 2-Rail TMCC Features Include:

NEW! Equipped with speed control technology with selectable 32 or 128 speed steps for industry compatibility
NEW! Operating ditch lights with prototypical oscillation
True 1/4" scale dimensions and details
Diesel exhaust unit
Highly detailed with railroad specific variations
Die-cast chassis, fuel tank, trucks, pilots
All metal handrails and grab irons
Electro-couplers
Dual motor with flywheels
Accurate painting and lettering
Length: approx. 15"
Lionel® TrainMaster ®Command Equipped featuring RailSounds™ digital sound system (including horn, bell diesel-roar sounds, etc.); crew Talk (in command and more...

RailSounds™ operates in both conventional and command modes in 3-Rail
RailSounds™ operates in command mode only in 2-Rail TMCC

Thank you all for your responding.

[wrmcclellan]

Elliot,

Again I agree with you.

For some thought, I think the direction Atlas may be considering is a possible migration of some 3-railers to 2 rail - which is possible when one considers that 3-rail is headed towards greater scale accuracy. Note the recent article about scale couplers (CTT or OGR - I cannot rememer). For Atlas - this may mean some additional market or at least keeping the one they have in 3-rail and 2-rail O-Scale. It is interesting that MTH may be seeing the same thing and have now introduced more 2-rail product (recall that MTH has made several runs or 2-rail as an option). Weaver actually started in 2-rail and added 3-rail.

Also consider that many have been kept out of O-Scale in the past due to $2000+ locomotives (anything of size or interest), $200+ freight cars (brass), and $600+ passenger cars (brass), etc. Also consider that DCC has a large up front entry cost and really requires someone who is a bit of a techie to take full advantage of it (e.g. programming the profile of your motors current draw via a PC link).

So, in my mind, there is a clear possibility that the 3-rail market may revitalize the 2-rail market as some continue to migrate towards more realism and operation. Lionel, MTH , Atlas, 3rd Rail, K-Line, Weaver, etc., have set a standard of very affordable and detailed 3-rail (and some 2 rail) scale locomotives, something not available to O-Scalers in the past. So consider the possibilities for the scale crowd with affordable options as MTH, Atlas, and Weaver are currently addressing.

I personally think this is good overall for the hobby.

Regards,
Roy

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks for that link Roy, that was very interesting. Proof that those S gauge guys are out there having fun, even if we have to go looking for them. [;)]

Back to the original question of 2 rail TMCC demo in a hobby shop. I'm afraid Frank is looking for "hen's teeth". He will never find such a thing, because it doesn't exist.

Here in the Twin Cities, a metropolitan area with a population close to 2 million, we have zero hobby stores that bother to sell 2 rail O. There is no demand!!! We have a great 2 rail O club, I used to be a member, but those guys don't get their stuff locally.

TMCC is slowly gaining popularity, but the total number of users is still very small, especially when compared to the numbers for DCC.

Simple math says that when we try to find the intersection of these 2 small groups, TMCC users and 2 rail O operators, the result is a much smaller group. If Atlas did indeed release 2 rail TMCC engines, I can't imagine there was much demand for such a product.

Most hobby stores these days are fighting to survive. I seriously doubt that any would be willing to devote any resources to this unusual market. It simply boils down to numbers, and the numbers aren't in favor of this combination.

P.S. I just looked at the Atlas website, and they do indeed have 2 rail engines in both TMCC and DCC listed. As far as I know, they are the only ones, though Weaver might also be doing this on a limited basis. The question is are they selling any?

[wrmcclellan]

This link has a lot of nice info regarding TMCC for AF.

http://www.tuveson.com/

Regards,
Roy

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

I am surprised that someone in the American Flyer camp has not pointed out that the number of rails and the use of AC or DC are not the same thing.

That's a very good point Bob. As I was typing that last response, Flyer was rattling around in the back of my mind. The major question is do the TMCC boards fit? Personally, I have nothing against Flyer or S, it's more that their camp is very small and quiet.

[lionelsoni]

I am surprised that someone in the American Flyer camp has not pointed out that the number of rails and the use of AC or DC are not the same thing.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tom, I realize that the 2 rail that Frank is looking for is most likely O. What I am trying to say is that regardless of size 2 railers see their trains differently from 3 railers. They have different priorities and needs when it comes to controls.

Roy's cost comparison, really makes the first logical arguement for 2 rail O operators to consider TMCC. One minor flaw is the power supply price. That assumes that a 2 railer will use AC on the rails. An interesting twist to say the least.

Personally, I just don't see anyone having the desire to blurr the line between 2 and 3 rail when it comes to command control systems. I am all in favor of 2 and 3 railers learning about their philosophical differences. That is where I try to blurr the line, by taking 3 rail trains into the operational realm of the 2 rail world, a concept still foreign to most 3 railers. Conversely, 2 railers need to understand that today's 3 rail trains are not just the toys that they were 20 years ago.

By the way Roy, I had spent the year trying to find a better way of doing power districts for TMCC. I managed to find an old friend who I haven't seen in 5 years. The guy is a genius when it comes to electronics, and I am glad to have him back on my team. When I told him what I was looking for, and what I was trying to do, he said "PolyFuse".

Digikey, under $1 per unit, makes Lionel's TMCC Lockon look stupid. They come in a wide variety of ratings, I plan to use a 6 amp version. $60 per 100 units, problem solved.

[wrmcclellan]

There is a financial incentive to go TMCC vs DCC

DCC 10 amp power supply: $270
TMCC Lionel 10 amp supply (180W): $90

DCC Command Base ($200) + Wireless CAB ($200 no display) + Wireless Base ($150): $550
TMCC Command Base + CAB1: $100

DCC Decoders (4 amp O Scale no sound): $90
TMCC decoder (no sound but upgradable): $80

To get first DCC loco running: $1010
To get first TMCC loco running: $270

Add wireless CABS (for multiple operators):
DCC: $200 each
TMCC: $60 each

Add Locos:
DCC: $90 each
TMCC: $80 each

Add 10 A power districts (e.g. addtional tracks):
DCC: $270 each
TMCC: $80 each

Regards,
Roy

[spankybird]

Elliot – Frank posted he was looking for TMCC on 2 rail. Let not get confused with HO and running trains or playing trains. It was because of your posting

QUOTE: By Big_Boy:
I have never heard of anyone using TMCC with 2 rail trains. Atlas is the only manufacturer that could really market such a train, but if memory serves, they don't. 2 rail versions of their locomotives are made with DCC.

That I offered a possible way to have TMCC command control on 2 rail.

Frank wasn’t looking for DCC, he is looking for TMCC.

[wrmcclellan]

Elliot,

Basically I agree with you.

However, having used DCC (and I liked what it does), I prefer TMCC. In my experience, TMCC is a lot more reliable and easier to use.

DCC has as many quirks in it as does DCS. The slightest intermittent short circuit (eg flanges rolling through a switch frog where isolation from other rail not absolutely perfect) will cause the DCC command station/booster to simply shut down. Then one spends hours searching for the short. Shorts not detected by the command station/booster. "Hung" decoders (parked loco in a stall and you do not know it) frying the can motors in a $3500 loco.

DCC does not have reliable wireless controllers and the ones that exist take interference from flourescent lighting and 900 MHz phones in the worst way.

When DCC works, it is a beautiful thing.

So if I were to go back into 2-rail O Scale with what I know today, I would go with TMCC. That is because I like to run the trains with a minimum of hassle.

Regards,
Roy

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Guys, 2 rail O is such a small market, and they have a well established standard of DCC. Why would they want to switch?? The HO market is about to strongly resist DCS. I know that DCS works on DC, so does TMCC, but 2 railers don't usually want the features that these systems offer. They want to operate their trains, not play with them.

The 2 rail mindset is very different from the 3 rail mindset, and until 3 railers understand how 2 railers think, and visa-versa, there will always be a gap seperating the two branches of the hobby. This is one of the main reasons that MTH is meeting such resistance with their HO line. I expect it to fail miserably. MTH doesn't get it.

[spankybird]

Here is a thought to consider

DCS does work on both AC and DC. It is used on both 2 rail (O Scale and Gauge 1) and 3 rail, Maybe DCS plus TMCC command base [?]

[wrmcclellan]

Folks,

Atlas introduced some 2-rail TMCC protoypes back in 2003. Not sure where they are on this at this time.

I was working on an O-scale layout with a friend for the 2003 O-scale convention and we were approached about doing a demo of the 2-rail TMCC by a vender offering it (not sure if it was Train America Studies or a hobby shop). However, the demo did not happen as far as I know.

If you go to TAS' web site (http://www.tastudios.com/scalecommand/sc_welcome.htm), there are links to their 2-rail O-Scale TMCC product called Scale Command.

Their address and phone number are:

Train America Studios
4137 Boardman-Canfield Rd
Suite LL02
Canfield, OH 44406
[phone]

Call them and see if there may be a demo in your area.

Regards,
Roy

[Big_Boy_4005]

DCC is the standard system for 2 rail trains, hands down, regardless of scale. As for hobby store layouts, you would be hard pressed to find any in 2 rail O. Those that bother to have display layouts go with HO, N, or 3 rail O.

I have never heard of anyone using TMCC with 2 rail trains. Atlas is the only manufacturer that could really market such a train, but if memory serves, they don't. 2 rail versions of their locomotives are made with DCC.

TMCC was developed specificly for the AC track power environment. While it could easily be adapted to DC for O scale, it's electronics are too large for any smaller scale. The 2 rail market has well established standards. TMCC is pretty much tied to 3 rail O, and has little chance for escape.

I'm not trying to be rude here Frank, but this question strikes me as being quixotic. Why do you seek such an operating system?

[spankybird]

I guess we have to ask what part of the country do you live in [?]

Maybe contact a 2 rail club [?]

tom

[Anonymous]

Are there any hobby shops with a 2 Rail TMCC Layout for demo? I would like to visit and see 2 Rail TMCC in action.

Frank Swafford
[e-mail]