The licensed set battle

[TurboOne]

This is a great topic, I see over 1,700 lookie loos but no new posts. What do you folks think of the kids type sets. Does this hobby need them, and what role should they play ?

Tim

[Anonymous]

The Polar express will win hands down. What in the world does Sponge Bob and life under the Ocean have to do with trains ? And the Elvis set is ugly. Checking ebay today The cheapest Polar express set is selling for 270.00 I was lucky enough to get mine from charles Ro for 189. my 5 year old loves it. It is made very well. Reminds me of
sets from the 50's.

[TurboOne]

Happy New Year to all !

I have just returned to trains after a 20 year break. I dug out my old train box, HO guage, and looked over the hundred of engines and cars I have. Turned out I only have 5 engines, two working, and about 15 freight cars, 4 passenger cars.

I took my kids to GATS and they had fun, and I went a second day and learned a lot. I am looking at switching to O gauge because of all the gimicky items. No offense to bigboy, real is very cool, but my 5 year old loves Thomas, and has enough wooden Thomas to buy the best O gauge layout. I wish santa had looked at electric trains a few years ago ! We love going to Lionels webpage and seeing all the videos of cool moving disney, sponge bob, toystory, animated buildings, etc....
I believe if not for these items, model trains will disappear within 25 years or less. If we don't get the younger crowd excited about trains, their hobby dollars will all go to playstation, xbox, and nintendo.
If the older crowd shows a little one the "cool" stuff, and then show them the real trains with sound, lights, on a scenery layout, then they can grow to love all trains, and like bigboy says, especially real trains. I would love to take them on a train ride, but everytime we travel we fly for the speed, or drive because we want a car everywhere we go.
HOers are so serious about their trains, that some of the fun isn't there for the next generation. Show them the fun, and the growth will take them and their dollars to real later in life.
I am thisclose to switching to O, and getting some gimicky sets, then, when I take over the whole garage, building a serious layout. Then bigboy, we need to talk about a real bigboy engine, with the works on lights and sound included.

Toot, toot ! Good to talk to train people again. They roll with the best

Tim

[brianel027]

All I can say Jon referring to your comment about having a Lionel Lines steamer is that for a number of years I had a portable door layout that I took to shows. The layout was built to appeal to families and kids. I had no barrier rope around the layout. I ran a variety of locos in a variety of roads. The layout was built largely of recycled materials, throw away scraps and used materials, just to illustrate what could be done on a shoestring budget. Trees were made from artificial Christmas Tree braches bought at a yard sale. Trackside bushes were made from plastic Aquarium plants, that bend instead of break. The track was all used. The mountain (yes I had room for a mountain) was made from thrownaway scraps of pink insulation board. The wiring was all tossed wire from the company where I worked... though I did test every piece first to be sure it worked. Accessories were simple and scratchbuilt or altered from common kids toys. I also made sure I had some kind of operating car on every train. In addition I had a gondola with Sesame Street characters in it.

Believe me, when I told people how the layout was made and for how little, they were impressed.

Yes, I ran postwar types of roads like Wabash, Pennsy, NYC, Lehigh Valley, CNJ, and Reading. I also ran more modern roads like Conrail, CSX, CP and Norfolk Southern. The reaction from the kids was distinct and very noticable - the locomotives with the modern roadnames brough a visable reaction from the kids: "Look Dad, there's the engine we saw going through town."

Now I should also note that in my neck of the woods, trains are STILL very visable, even if they are not part of people's lives as they once were. In Elmira, NY the trains still run over the old EL/Erie elevated track that goes through the center of the city (the trains are very noticable). The line into Ithaca was always a secondary under the Lehigh Valley, then Conrail and now NS. But as a secondary line, it sees tremendous traffic of coal and salt trains due to the power facility and the salt mines. The trains there run right through the busiest intersection in town... it's a slow train and the adults probably curse everytime they have to sit in traffic waiting, but again the train is very visable. And on a long boring unit train of covered or open hoppers the blue Conrail or black NS (with that kid pleasing horse logo) locomotives are a stand out! There's heavy traffic through Corning on what was once the Erie/EL, then Conrail, now NS line. The track runs through town and is visable from part of the highway. Anyone going to Wal-Mart can't miss the train: it runs right over the main highway to Wal-Mart... talk about advertising. And the train yards at Gang Mills are very visable from the highway and always have some activity. The County Recycling Facility is right next to the train yard.

So kids in these parts STILL see trains on potentially an everyday basis. And from my experience, if you want kids to relate to trains, they should be models of what they actually see. If not acutal replicas (which is getting tougher to do in smaller sizes since actual real trains are getting bigger) they should at least be in colors and roads that kids might recognize.

I won't go as far as to say that my findings would apply everywhere. There are places in the country where kids don't see trains anymore. But where kids do see trains, they are not going to see the Wabash or the Pennsy... these are roads the parents may remember though, depending on the age of the parents. I'd say today even those young parents are more likely to recall the Penn Central, Chessie and Conrail over others.

Again, I will say from personal frontline experience, kids also liked the steam locomotives. There, it's just a simple fascination with the magic, the beauty and complexity of their running. But even on a comparison between a operating steam loco with smoke and whistle and a Conrail or NS diesel, the CR/NS diesels still brought the most positive reaction.

The only exception to my amazement on this issue of modern vs. postwar roadnames, was the Santa Fe warbonnet scheme. Hey, it was popular 50 years ago and from the reactions I saw on kids faces and in their own words, it still has tremendous appeal!! This is something that surprised me very much.

As far as SpongeBob, maybe the train set won't do so well. I don't think MTH has the availability that Lionel has. MTH doesn't have the name recognition that Lionel has, and the SpongeBob set - though good MTH quality - is kind of pricey ($200) for what comes with it. BUT I still think SponeBob will have some staying power as a cartoon. Unlike the Smurfs or others that are aimed at very young children (and have very simplistic story lines), SpongeBob is aimed at slightly older kids who will remember. The story lines are even amusing for adults. I never watched a SpongeBob cartoon until my nephew Josh asked me to, and I enjoyed it. As a guy who has always liked cartoons and can draw them rather well, I say there's a very good chance SpongeBob is going to be around for a while.

There are several reasons why I stopped doing the shows. But a big one was I got tired of telling people the trains I ran weren't being made by anyone. People would ask, "Wow, where'd you get that Conrail loco?" I painted it myself. I custom built a shortened modern looking locomotive from a number of different parts, that looked very much at home on my 027 track. Even train guys would ask, "where'd you get that nice little modern looking diesel?"

Here I was, promoting a hobby with smaller types of affordable trains that run on 027 track in roadnames that in 14 years, are STILL being ignored. I had a K-Line Alco FA done in the bright orange CSX (talk about colorful locos for kids) that always caught attention... yet no one will make it. I had strobe lights on my little locos long before K-Line was actually putting them on - and even now, it's only the MP-15 that has them.

It's kind of like talking to an army General to get an assessment of the battlefield. It's fine, and still important to have an overview. BUT if you want to know the real story, ask the private who was down there on the frontline in a foxhole.

Sometimes I think this is just me. But I did over 10 years worth of shows and talked to far too many parents and saw the reaction of far too many kids. What I am saying is true, whether anyone cares to believe it or not.

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DJSpanky

QUOTE: Originally posted by Buckeye Riveter

Well, well, well, some very interesting comments. As to the longevity of Sponge Bob, I ask where are the Smurfs and their obnoxious song. (if you liked that song, I would suggest that you will really like riding a Small, Small World at a Disney Theme Park. [:D][}:)])

It's a world of laughter, a world of tears
It's a world of hope, and a world of fears
There's so much that we share
That it's time we're aware
It's a small world after all.

(You asked for it!)

DJSpanky, you must work for Disney [:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by palallin

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomUP3985

There is a large population now in the buying stages that has no recollection of Lionel.

Not quite true: they may not have had postwar trains themselves, but they do know the name. All the others are no-names to the general public. 100 years of history cannot be replicated by Sponge Bob (ESPECIALLY not by Sponge Bob).

Except today there is a large population of new citizens/and non citizens that listen to what their children want and they have no recollection of any toy trains. But they listen to
what there kids want from TV they watch. Sponge Bob will turn out big.

[prewardude]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I have been to a number of hobby shops in my area, and have not seen the Sponge Bob or the Elvis train sets. Are they Lionel?

Espee,

The SpongeBob set is made by MTH; the Elvis set by Lionel.

[Anonymous]

Polar Express will win easily because it is a train from a story about the train.

Or maybe i just hate spong bob. Just an awful cartoon.

[Anonymous]

I think that the sponge bob will just remain a toy. The Polar Express will be a real collectible!!

[Anonymous]

Actually they have never seen a lionel display set up in "Department Stores" until just after WW2 each year.

Actually where ARE the department stores these days? Super centers?? bleah.

I suspect that the Polar Express enjoys some popularity this season as to it's strength in the coming years, well we will see.

Having experienced the famous "Cabbage Patch" madness during the late 80's where people would fight, wrestle and bid for the last Patch Doll in the store... I will hope that the Hobby retains some "Class" each christmas.

[espeefoamer]

I have been to a number of hobby shops in my area, and have not seen the Sponge Bob or the Elvis train sets. Are they Lionel?

[palallin]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomUP3985

There is a large population now in the buying stages that has no recollection of Lionel.

Not quite true: they may not have had postwar trains themselves, but they do know the name. All the others are no-names to the general public. 100 years of history cannot be replicated by Sponge Bob (ESPECIALLY not by Sponge Bob).

[Anonymous]

There is a large population now in the buying stages that has no recollection of Lionel.

Young parents of today are not the operators/fans of the 1950s Lionel. They don't know about Lionel any more then they know about Kline, MTH , Weaver or Williams.

Polar Express will sell because of the movie, not Lionel. Sponge Bob would probably sell a lot better if the production run was higher and people were running them at the shows in Edison recently held. In the past our Club ran Thomas engines made from the DieCast Thomas Engines that were O scale size, (Thomas and Percy) over small
Lionel steam engine chassis. Parents wanted to buy them from us all the time..Kids loved them and screamed for them to run again, and again , and again.

Small kids will find the Sponge Bob sets and it will be like Thomas all over again.

Buy a Sponge Bob set for your club and the visiting families will love it.

[Kooljock1]

Snell,

Yes, that's the set with the FT Diesel and the three coaches. Good runner, GREAT sounds!

Jon [8D]

[Kooljock1]

Buckeye,

The day of the "Top 40" album and Top 40 Singles chart is dead. Now everything is a "niche" of the music world. Now there's the Top 40 CHR, Country, Hot Country, Rock, AAA, Dance CHR, AC, Hot AC yadda yadda yadda....

But the Barnes & Noble chart if memory serves, is based on their own sales, and therefore probably pretty accurate...unless they bought a ton of a loser, and are trying to "hype" the sales.

Still in all, it's a pretty nice sound track, and I wouldn't mind a copy myself!

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

anybody see the New York Central Limited? that looks awesome.
its by Lionel

[Buckeye Riveter]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Kooljock1

While The Polar Express may be a "holiday flash in the pan" for LIONEL, it also has the potential to be a perennial holiday flash in the pan for LIONEL.

EVERY Christmas Barnes & Noble and Waldenbooks and Borders has a Polar Express display. And every Christmas they sell more copies. You throw in DVD's, Pay Per View, and television airings of the movie, along with the fact that IMAX theatres are already talking of seasonal re-releases of the movie, and you've got a big teneder full of coal and water to fuel future sales down the road. As of Thursday, the movie broke the 100 million dollar mark with no signs of slowing down.

And while it is a passenger set with no specific roadname, it has terrific "play value" with its metal roof pegs for the action figures, and flag-holders on the engine pilot to placing them as well.

My first set was a plastic 2-4-2 with no whistle and "LIONEL LINES" on the tender. It came with a Giraffe Car, Sheriff & Outlaw, and horse flat. Today I'm in the hobby. The way some of you talk, I shouldn't be!

Jon [8D]

Jon, I was in Barnes and Noble tonight at the semi-famous Columbus's Easton Mall. (They even have three LGB trains running in one of the court yards.) I saw the Polar Express display and I thought they had a similiar display last year as you described. When we entered the music section of the bookstore, the music from the Polar Express was displayed with the other top albums. To my surprise, the album is one of the top sellers this year. I can't remember exactly what its ranking was, but I believe it was No. 5.

Since you are any the entertainment business, can you comment on the music side of the Polar Express. In my day a Top 40 anything was doing really good.

[Kooljock1]

While The Polar Express may be a "holiday flash in the pan" for LIONEL, it also has the potential to be a perennial holiday flash in the pan for LIONEL.

EVERY Christmas Barnes & Noble and Waldenbooks and Borders has a Polar Express display. And every Christmas they sell more copies. You throw in DVD's, Pay Per View, and television airings of the movie, along with the fact that IMAX theatres are already talking of seasonal re-releases of the movie, and you've got a big teneder full of coal and water to fuel future sales down the road. As of Thursday, the movie broke the 100 million dollar mark with no signs of slowing down.

And while it is a passenger set with no specific roadname, it has terrific "play value" with its metal roof pegs for the action figures, and flag-holders on the engine pilot to placing them as well.

My first set was a plastic 2-4-2 with no whistle and "LIONEL LINES" on the tender. It came with a Giraffe Car, Sheriff & Outlaw, and horse flat. Today I'm in the hobby. The way some of you talk, I shouldn't be!

Jon [8D]

[prewardude]

QUOTE: Originally posted by highrailjon

My vote is for the soon to be released "Beavis And Butthead Express".[:D]

Can you imagine that with "Beavis and Butthead CrewTalk"?! Oh, the horror! [:0]

[highrailjon]

My vote is for the soon to be released "Beavis And Butthead Express".[:D]

[Anonymous]

I also think that the Polar Express movie just may end up being a classic that will be viewed by many every year. Let's hope so! If that is true, the Polar Express will be very collectable on-going.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Well, well, well, some very interesting comments. As to the longevity of Sponge Bob, I ask where are the Smurfs and their obnoxious song. (if you liked that song, I would suggest that you will really like riding a Small, Small World at a Disney Theme Park. [:D][}:)]) It is about a 30% chance that Sponge Bob will have staying power. New characters in the past of been developed and just pulled the rug out from some really good children's programming.

Every year for the past 12 years, our neighborhood Christmas party is at our house. We run the trains and do you know that most people who watch and run the trains don't give a wit about which car is more prototypical than another, but they love to point out to others the sheriff/outlaw car, the aquarium car, the giraffe car, the submarine car, the elephant car, the chicken car, the roadrunner car and the satellite car. Now remember, these are people not into trains. They do comment on the quality of the engines based mostly on the sound of the horn or whistle and one gentlemen that is a publisher for a major book company always loves the absurd the best.

One of the most interesting comments someone said on this post is that the head of Lionel gave us Spiderman. Maybe he has a vision of keeping the Polar Express on the front burner during future holidays. We don’t know if Lionel has something going with Hallmark or not, but if I were the head of Lionel, I would give it strong consideration for the future.

The Polar Express madness will decrease. Guaranteed.

I still believe that Lionel missed the boat, the pier and the water with their lack of marketing savy. Every theater in every major city should have had a Polar Express running on a small layout in the lobby with a raffle to give the set away to a lucky movie patron on December 24th.

One thing that many of you don't realize, but living with two teachers I get the full review about the book. The book has become a classic of sorts. It is a good book to read to your kids and of course it is usually read at Christmas.

[brianel027]

I agree with you too Elliot, which is why it is sad that most of the starter sets aimed at beginners are made with items that have been around for decades in mostly roadnames that have also not been around for decades.

Other than MTH/Railking, no one has done any new tooling in the 027 arena. I've always thought Lionel missed the boat a decade ago by not tooling up some kind of modern looking Dash-8/9 - SD90MAC locomotive: a up-to-date modern equal to the beginner Alco FA of years ago.

Even if they had taken the basic 14inch GP frame and just put a new body on it. With a little thought into it and some time to make the proportioning look right. MTH Raiking is the only company to do some smaller modern locomotives, but even many of these suffer from what I call the "Shoebox" look... they just shortened the length without consideration to the height and the overall look of the engine. Of course, I know whay they made them as tall as they did: to have the capacity to take the additional electronics should they decide to add them at a later date. That and most of the older Railking cars were taller anyways. But those locos still tower above many of the Railking cars.

[3railguy]

Considering you get a berk and coaches with the Polar Express and a dockside and freight cars with the Spongebod for nearly the same MSRP, I would have to say the Polar Express is the winner.

I feel the Ploar Express maddness will be short lived and the $400 prices will drop drastically. Especially as more sets are being shipped and even more sets will be produced.

[Anonymous]

My in-laws wanted the Polar Express set after seeing the moive for their Xmas tree, which supports Big Boy position that its just an Xmas set. Being unable to find a set they ended up buying a Lionel's Holiday set, and are very happy with it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey everyone, please don't confuse the Polar Express' success with Lionel, the movie or trains. There is only one reason it has been a comercial success, and that is Christmas.

Now perhaps people associate trains with Christmas because of Lionel's long standing tradition. That's great for seasonal sales, but it does virtually nothing for the hobby. In my mind, hobbiests are more than seasonal train buyers. Their trains are in use regardless of the date on the calander.

The toy train tradition was founded on idea of making realistic trains, not on a bunch of gimicky marketing nonsense. All of these sets are just desperate attempts to sell trains.

I realize that this is not the point of this topic, but if we really want to get kids interested in trains, we should focus on the real ones that are running the rails of our nation. Go back to basics.

[wrmcclellan]

I have no idea who will win.

What I do know is that my kids (and our neighbors kids 10 -12 years old) love Spongebob. However - they could care less about a Spongebob train set. They do care about having a new Spongebob game for their PS2, Gameboy, etc.

Most Spongebob stuff sells for under $20-25. A $250 train set is way out of line for the typical SB affectionado.

I note that Disney train sets sell well mainly because of older Disney collectors. People who have no interest in trains collect Disney trains because it has Disney characters on it. I think the same thing applies to most Warner Bros stuff.

If the Spongebob set did something (Crabbypattie loader or something) or had Spongebob village pieces (houses the characters live in, etc.) and characters to play with it would have a better appeal to younger kids (8 or so).

Pokemon was huge for a couple of years and is now dead. Beanie Bables before that (I am thankful no one offered a BB train). Yu-Gi-Oh is hot now for the 10-11 year old set.

For every fad that lasts there are many that do not.

I agree that the toy train manufacturers missed the boat by not having a Hogwart's Express set when the first movie came out. That one would have had recurring sales since there is a new movie being released every couple of years.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

The Polar Express set will dominate (as it already has). The other two won't even come close--now or in the future.

[Anonymous]

You've made some very good points, Brian. I guess I was a bit hasty about SpongeBob. After reading your post, I'm inclined to go with your point of view. At the moment, we're experiencing something of an extreme SpongeBob mania and while he might make a comeback in the future, his popularity can't continue to stay where it currently is forever, though. Only time will tell, I guess.