MTH DCS vs. Lionel TrainMaster DCC

[Anonymous]

Stpaul,

The star wiring pattern that you proposed should do nicely. I have been using an MTH Terminal block to radiate the wires out to the track. Any good quality terminal strip should do. It is important to run the power through the TIU at this point, to get the best possible signal strength.

Regarding separating TMCC from DCS, I assume that you do not mean separating the Command Base? I would definitely keep it installed, so that you can run TMCC and PS-2 locomotives simultaneously.

The TPC's are sort of redundant with DCS, although as you pointed out, they can handle a lot more current than the variable channels of DCS. TPC's also have many more speed steps, which is an advantage. That being said, the variable channels still work very well for conventional use.

FYI, there is an individual who manufactures a special cable that is supposed to allow you to keep and use all of your TMCC electronics while still connecting the Command Base to the TIU. I think it is called an "Enabler". I have no experience with it, but I will look for the ad.

Please continue to keep us all posted.

Thank you.

[CB&Q]

RAK 402 can only find 14 v bulbs I tried it at TPC power out nonchange.Then went to blk #6 term went to 5-6. then I ran a jumper from TIU fx 1 out to same blk Got 9's but as engine moved from track to track it would go to 7& then back up to a 9. I think if I run a set of wires to each side of layout& then run star type of wire pattern to each blk that should do it. I ran into a short runing power thru TIU to track as I think the power went back to TMCC- TPC side of wiring as I put an on/off switch between power source & TIU & it stopped. thats why I only run DCS signal out to track less to remember to turn on& off. I wonder if HO folk have as much problems with there type of command control supposedly any manuf system will work with anyone elses why can't our o-gauge side do the same instead of fighting each other??? Also I don't know if I take TPC's out if I can still acess my blk powerb controllers???? I'm not in ST PAUL But I grew up there until 1963 then to az.

[Anonymous]

Stpaul,

The light bulb helped, that is good. We can do much better. Where did you connect the light bulb?

Some people are reporting much better signal strength when running in "Active" mode (running the power through the TIU as MTH intended) as opposed to "Passive" mode. It sounds like you did this by running through the TIU (from you previous post). You should not have to isolate common grounds, but do need to isolate the center rail to form blocks to get the signal strength up. I almost always run in "Active" mode. Always on the large floor layout. I only used "Passive" mode on the Super O layout as a test.

Keep pressing, you are improving things steadily!

You should not need to remove Command Base from layout. I am not sure about Block controller, but you should switch to "Active" mode before you make any changes to the block controller.

Has PS-2 train control improved with TIU mounting changed and 5-6 signal strength? We still need to get you up to 9's and 10's.

By the way, in most cases, it is not this difficult. It sounds like you have a very nice, somewhat complex layout.

Sorry this post is choppy-very little time at the moment.

Keep us posted!

[CB&Q]

I also have cleaned track you can eat off of it & used scotch brite pad & removed blk film off of center rail all for nothing no diff on signal after all that. I still think I need to wire each system independant of each other with toggle switch to keep power from finding away to create a short.

[CB&Q]

I tried lite trick only gets signal to 5-6 from 4's. I tried runin a jumper from tiu output to one blk of track went up to 9's but it also makes outer oval hot as well do common grounds have to be isolated from inner- outer mainlines? this system is alot more work than TMCC. I know there has to be a way for TMCC products like tpc's&blk power controlers to work but so far I have'nt found How to get DCS to work as well using existing wiring. oh well back to the drawing board!!!!!!!!!!!! By the way I also run conv engines as well easier with TMCC.

[Anonymous]

Stpaul,

Do you have any light bulbs involved in your wiring? Try the "light bulb trick". Add one 18 volt light bulb to each TIU output that you are using. We had an issue at AGHRS where the signal was very weak in the freight yard. We added a light bulb and the signal strength went from "Check Track" to "10".

I usually keep a couple of light bulbs on clip leads handy for trouble shooting layouts.

If the light bulb does not help at the TIU, try is at several locations around the layout, including connected directly to the track. You can park a locomotive with the "Track Signal" function turned on and clip and unclip the light bulbs around the layout to see if it helps.

This is a quick, simple thing to try. There is a reason why we have all those lighted lock-ons on the demo layout.

[CB&Q]

As usual I forgot to answer 1- questions. I'm using 14 gauge wire from OGR Backshop It is supposed to work well with DCS per J. Barret at OGR It's even color coded same as TIU Hookup knobs to lessen chance of hooking wrong color to wrong posts

[CB&Q]

I have aprox 25 foot long oval x 9.5 feet wide inside outer slightly larger. I'm using Block power boxes from I.C. Controls to a terminal strip from there goes out to 4 isolated blocks per loop of track. For DCS I by passed block power controlers & went directly to terminal strip & hooked fixed outputs from 1&2 to each oval of track. I'm not runin power thru TIU just sending DCS signal to track.I'm using a mix of gargraves& ross track withBlk'nd center rail I used scotch brite pad on offending areas but no better than before removal of blk'nd rail. outside oval I need to go thru each connection& verify good& tite. also I tried Soldering powere feeders to rails cuold this be aproblem? I used spade connectors on previous layoutsforced into track from underside of track opening I wonder if I should try that on 1 section of isolated track& see if signal gets better? what do you folks think??

[Anonymous]

Stpaul,

Glad it is getting better. Now for wiring:

Please do not separate your TMCC and DCS wiring, they will work fine together. Can you describe your inner loop (i.e. length of the loop, type and gauge of wire, number of connections, number of sidings, etc.)?. You mentioned block control-the method that you use to turn blocks off and on may severly impact DCS signal. Can you describe how you are accomplishing this.

Thank you.

FYI:

I am running 14 gauge paired speaker wire. Largest loop is approximately 90 feet in length-broken into four blocks. Blocks are created by insulating center rail only with plastic pin. One lighted connection at each end of each block. All connections radiated out from center of layout. One TIU channel supports one loop of track (all four blocks). Solid 10's all around. Each siding ends in lighted MTH or Lionel bumper. Block control is for sidings only-blocks are turned on and off by knife switches on 437 Switch Tower.

Photos of demo layout from last November-MTH PS-2 and Lionel TMCC both operated very well on the same track at the same time!:





You can see paired lock-ons on tracks in foreground. There is an insulated pin between each pair of lock-ons. This kind of wiring is overkill but works very consistantly on a large layout which is put together and taken apart constantly.

Please note Lionel Command Base between TIU and AIU in control box in center of layout. Both DCS and TMCC signal are broadcast from all four TIU channels to all tracks, all the time.

Also please note original Lionel post-war accessories-all operated through DCS with AIU.


Thank you.

[spankybird]

Your single strength are pretty low. You may want to consider cleaning your track also. Are you using track with a blacken center rail [?] If so, you may want to remove the black from the top of the rail.
tom

[CB&Q]

[:D][:D] I wired up the main lines from new tiu spot works fine will try velcro idea thx. I'm only getting 4-5 read on track signal on inner loop. outer loop is mostly check track only 1 section reads as #1 back to wiring may have to isolate tmcc from dcs& IC controls- block power etc.

[Anonymous]

Stpaul,

The best way to mount a TIU that I have found, is velcro. I actually learned this from a friend who runs an "all Lionel" shop in Anaheim (the Toy Train Shop). A couple of years ago, when I was trying to figure out how to mount my components, he showed me how he did it. He had a vertically mounted sheet of plywood with his Command Base, SC-2's etc. mounted with velcro.

The industrial strenght velcro from Home Depot works really well. It is about two inches wide. Two strips of it will hold the TIU very well.

It will stick great to the back of the TIU. but if you are mounting to plywood (as I did), staple the other side of the velcro to the plywood, as the sticky part of the velcro does not hold well over time.

In all honest, I do not remember what the "T" is for but I will research it.

[CB&Q]

ME again forgot to ask on remote I now show a big T in upper right corner of remote I didn't put it there so how do I get rid of it ????????? Or do I have a new problem to deal with.

[CB&Q]

[:D] to all who helped!!!!!!!!!! I checked all boards tiu- remote they were alittle loose. batts good in remote. got original 2 3.0 setups back together used a temp track to get things goin again took 2-hrs but so far test track is working. I have discovered thou you can't have any metal - screws locos anywhere close to antenna area as it will show as rf error go figure. how can I mount TIU to table in vertical pos so it can't fall off??? if I use screws will they need electric tape or ? to keep electronicsfrom getting fried??? now comes the real test will all this work on the layout . I certainaly hope so. will let you know results latter. THANKS TO ALL FOR THE HELP!!!!!

[AlanRail]

STP

have you checked the batteries in the handheld.

make sure that they are fresh and making a good connection. I stuffed a piece of foam popcorn under the battery cover to help press the batteries into the handheld.

Alan

[Anonymous]

Do both remote and TIU have same software load? When 3.0 came out, it did a number of things including re-structuring the memory allocation between the Handheld and the TIU. If one of the components has 3.0 and the other an earlier software load, then you will have difficulty. If both components were upgraded to 3.0 but both were not re-set afterwards you will likewise have problems.

Please let me know.

What area of the country are you located in?

[CB&Q]

Rec'd your message will give tiu move a try . as to handheld I did hook it to tiu via phone line same response as before nada. if i move tiu & still no response is it a good bet that remote is bad? be uot of town will try this next day . thx for the help.

[Anonymous]

St Paul,

The first thing you might try, is tethering the Handheld to the TIU with a four wire telephone handset wire. If that cures it, it is definitely an RF problem.

If the tethering cures things, first make sure that the RF boards in both the TIU and Handheld are both seated firmly. Occasionally one will come loose and that will make things rather interesting.

If both boards are seated correctly and the problem persists, try getting the TIU out in the open, and mount it vertically. An air gap ( as you described) is not a substitute for "line of site" from an RF standpoint for our purposes. I had the TIU under my Super O layout and found that, depending on what was in between the remote and the layout, I could get the signal blocked, causing a temporary loss of control. There is one layout that I visit that has all the TIU's mounted under the table. Depending on where I am standing, if I hold the Handheld above the surface of the layout, I may experience a temporary loss of control. If I move the Handheld under the table, control is instantly restored. When the Super O layout is taken out of storage, the TIU will be mounted on the wall (next to the Command Base) well above the surface of the layout. The object is to be able to control things properly no matter where the Handheld is relative to the layout.

Both of my temporary control setups have the TIU mounted vertically and out in the open. Both have excellent range and do not experiece the issue you described.

With regard to the TIU being on its back: There is a small wire antenna inside which is about two or three inches long mounted to the RF board. It runs parallel to the long side of the TIU. If you stand the TIU up, no matter where you are in the room, the same amount of antenna area will be presented to the remote. If you lay it on its back, if you are to the side of the TIU, you will have the maximum antenna area presented to the Handheld. If you are off the end of the TIU, you will have essentially no antenna presented to the handheld . The difference between "I" and "." in terms of antenna area. I learned about this from flying R/C Helicopters and airplanes. Pointing the antenna directly at the airplane when it was close to the ground (especially with the early radios) could be a sporting proposition (loss of control there was usually somewhat expensive).

In terms of working for x number of hours then stopping, we sometimes have things running all day at demos without shutting down and have no problem (sometimes we all shut down to eat). I am suspicious that you may be standing in a different place, relative to the TIU when you experience the problem, or there is a wiring problem on the layout which is causing temporary loss of signal (reflection or out of phase condition) so the problem occurs when the trains are in a certain geographic area of the layout.

One other area where I have experienced a loss of control (on one of my own layouts and on one that I was troubleshooting for someone else) was a slightly loose connection where the track wire connected to the TIU or the MTH Power distribution panel. It took a while to find it in both cases-in both cases the connection was sufficiently strong for the voltage to pass through to the track, but not the DCS signal. In both cases, cleaning an tightening the connection cured it instantly (took longer to find than to fix).

Let me know if any of the above is useful to you.

As far as wiring is concerned, are you familiar with Barry Broskowitz of the OGR forum? He developed guidelines for wiring DCS layouts that have become known as "Barry's Commandments" (he does not care for the term). At any rate, these guidelines have helped a great many people have a very successful experience with DCS. I use a modified version of this. If you want I can post the link to it.

Anyway, the number 1 issue is to eliminate RF problems between the TIU and the Handheld as a possible cause of the problem, then look into the wiring.

I am leaning more toward the RF issue at this point, as opposed to a wiring issue as you mentioned that you sometimes cannot find the TIU with the remote and also that the "E-Stop" feature failed. Neither of these failures should be the result of a wiring issue and are probably genuine RF issues.


Sorry to go on so long. Please let me know if any of this helps.

Thank you.

[CB&Q]

Not sure of tiu on its back. yes it sits on its 4-pads on a wood table under layout but is on 4 metal casters so all electronics are not more than 1-foot under table als has 1 1/2 feet of open air space all around it . now my question is how can it work for hours just fine & then decide not to . If signal was issue would't it show up most if not all the time??

[Anonymous]

Stpaul,

I will be happy to assist if you want. Properly set up, DCS will be more solid than TMCC (which is really solid). We just fire the layout up and DCS works with no problem. Not trying to be argumentative, that is just the way it works. We have run up to 10 trains at once through one TIU on four tracks (combination of PS-2, TMCC, and conventional.

Just out of curiosity, where is the TIU mounted. I keep seeing people mounting them flat on their back under the layout and that is not usually conducive to the system working correctly. It is definitly "line of site".

If you do a track signal test, what is the result?

Are you actually located in ST Paul? If you are in California, you can come and run with us sometime to see how it is supposed to work.

Anyway, the offer to assist is there if you would like it.

[CB&Q]

In answer to your questions. 1. yes cable has black box. 2.I had local hobby tech download3.0 on old tiu. 4. I bought a new tiu 2- weeks ago no indication of rev date etc shown on box. but both tiu&handheld workedfine until last 2 days.5. I bought ogr's 14 gauge wire that is dcs compatible.6. transformer is z-4000. news flash yesturday had 3- mth ps-2's going 2 on same track tryed to slow rear train down& no response tried other 2 no response 2 trains on colision course in desperation hit e-stop on handheld no response shut trans off since then I get tiu error or no active dcs on track . handheld shows all 3 locos as inactive cannot get tiu or h held to read trains on track. is signal better -dcs-tmcc not so far& yes all 3 loco's respond to tmcc no wire change just fire up tmcc& poof it all works !!! ready to throw system in trash where it belongs.

[Anonymous]

Stpaul,

If anything, DCS response should be more solid than TMCC.

Which cable are you running from TIU to Command Base? Is there a black box in cable?

Which software load are you on?

Which TIU do you have (Rev I, Rev. H1, or Rev. G)?

Does software in Handheld match software in TIU?

What type of wiring do you have to the track (buss, star, wire type and gauge).

What transformer are you using?

Sorry for all the questions, but I would like to assist, if possible. I am sure that Tom would also.

[CB&Q]

I have a cordless phone 2.9 This none read problem on remote screen is very speradic& even will do things with out be asked. mth knows me well at tech site I sometimes even have a problem getting tiu to accept the fact that it is avalid id#. sometimes if I shut it down and wait till next day then it works fine go figure !! this is also 2nd tiu only 1-month old no better than first one. I also cannot get mth system to run a tmcc engine! I do all the programing according to instructions but no response- take cab-1 & type in same id# and its up & runnin. I am not Impressed with DCS so far am concidering goin back to toggle switches & enjoying myself instead of being frustated.

[spankybird]

The one part I really like is when I change engines on the layout, you just have to press the ‘READ’ button and DCS finds your active engines. Start them up and run.

[Anonymous]

Tom Taras,

I agree with you about the display. It is a huge improvement over the little plastic templates that fit over the keypad on the TMCC Cab-1. I don't like having to stare at the Cab-1 to try to figure out which button to push and I keep loosing the templates (I greatly appreciate Lionel including a new one with each locomotive).

It is also a lot simpler to press a button permanently labeled "Smoke" to turn the smoke on or off and a button permanently labled "Headlight" to turn the headlight on and off as opposed to having to remember a code.

Just out of curiosity, why do you have the TMCC on one loop and DCS on the other, as opposed to both the DCS and TMCC signals on all loops, all the time?

[ChiefEagles]

Go with the DCS. Complicated to operate is BULL S. Mine is running on a temp floor layout with old Lionel track and temp wiring. NO PROBLEMS. I went with DCS because I can add the TMCC module and run both. Why buy two complete systems? Now you can run all command trains [no matter what brand] at less cost and equipment.

[Anonymous]

dcs system is the better system between the two systems-more options and display screen to inform the user of the different options and processes-i run 4 loops with 3 on the dcs system and one on only tmcc system-harder system to learn at first, but after mastering the system, far superior to the tmcc system-only use the tmcc system because i have the system and do not want to use the conventional way of controlling the one loop with the transformer handle

[barclaysierra]

Thank you all for your input and advice. Since I'm sticking with MTH Proto Sound 2.0 for the moment, I'll try the DCS. Sounds like most of you have had a positive experience with it.

And to whomever asked, Folsom CA is in the northern part of the state next to Sacramento.

JB

[spankybird]

Stpaul – I would first check and see what your track single strength is. If you are above a 7 you should be ok. Do you have a cordless phone that operates in the 900Mhz range [?] or do you use a cell phone when you are having troubles with your DCS [?]

IMO DCS is very simple to install and operate. Two wires from the transformer to the TUI and then two wires from the TUI to the track.

OGR makes a great video on both and here are the links
http://www.ogaugerr.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=V-DCS-01

http://www.ogaugerr.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?search=action&keywords=Trainmaster

It not a bad investment and training video.