At a train show a while back, a customer bought two postwar Lionel accessories from me: a 145 gateman and a 252 crossing gate. They were for his grandson, who, he said, had a new Lionel starter set with Fastrack. I explained that he would need the 6-12029 Accessory Activator Pack to operate the accessories and that he should follow the instructions on the box to hook up his postwar accessories. He bought a new-in-the-box 12029 from me for that purpose.
This weekend at the next edition of that show he came back complaining that the accesories didn't work. He says he inserted the Accessory Pack track sections into his grandson's layout and hooked up the items, one at a time, but that neither did anything. I know the accessories were in working order when I sold them because I tested both at home. I admit, however, that I am not familiar with Fastrack, preferring 027 myself. Nonetheless, I assumed the Activator Pack operates just like an insulated track section on a tubular layout.
When I asked about his grandson's power supply, he said the train ran via wireless remote control, so it must be one of the newer Lionel starter sets that comes so equipped. He was not able to specify the set's identity any further. Unfortunately, he lives a couple of hours away so it's not real easy for me to check that out myself.
I've no reason to doubt this customer's integrity so I am wondering if there is something else one needs to do to make postwar accessories operate with Fastrack. Any thoughts?
John
The Accessory Activator Pack does work like an insulated track section on tubular track. I've operated a grim reaper gatehouse (same operating principle as the 145 gateman) with mine.
If he has one of the newer remote control sets with the 'wall wart' plug in power supply, it might be that that power supply is too small to operate the train and the accessory. Just a guess/opinion, because I have never worked with one of the new sets.
Good luck.
Thanks. I've found out that the set in question is 6-30233, the LionChief version of the Pennsylvania Flyer. It is powered by a "wall-pack power supply" with a LionChief remote. Any thoughts on how to get postwar accessories to operate with this set will be appreciated.
Old school seperate power supply and button for each. Just an idea. as it appears it needs more power/another power supply.
Question for those in the know. The lionchief set will run on regular track with that power supply correct? if so can he get rid of wall pack and just hook like a CW-8 0 to the track and be able to use the remote that way? or does the wall wart have some of the control aspect to it.?
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I think the LioinChief system runs with a constant track voltage of 18 volts. A CW-80 set to 18 volts should do the job.
I'm thinking that there might be a larger (higher wattage) power supply available for Lion Chief sets. Check the Lionel web site for the Track & Power catalog.
Thanks, guys. I ran my question by the Lionel Service Department via their website and this is what they told me:
"Unfortunately, these postwar accessories would not be able to be powered by a LionChief power supply at this wall-pack is DC. An AC transformer will be needed. LionChief locomotives have the ability to run on both AC and DC. We apologize for any inconvenience."
Obviously this means an AC transformer will run the trains, but whether it will work with the remote control is unclear. I suspect it will not.
Again I don't have any lionchief but seems I have heard you can run them with the remote on any layout as the question came up can I run them on my Command control layout and the answer was yes but you still need to use the remote that came with it as Cab1 or Cab2 can not operate it
These two accessories' electrical parts are just incandescent lamps and solenoids. I would expect the solenoids to operate satisfactorily (and quietly) at DC voltages lower than the 10 to 14 AC volts they were intended for. I would just be careful not to apply any voltage, AC or DC, more than a little higher than needed to get them to operate, for any great length of time, to avoid overheating.
Bob Nelson
I ran across my Track and Power catalog. On page 35, it lists a Lionchief 72 watt power supply, stock # 6-81603. The onlt additional description is '4 amp'.
Anybody know what the wattage rating is on the standard power supply that comes in Lionchief sets?
If this one is larger, it might be the solution for adding the accessories. As Bob states, either the crossing gate or the gateman ought to operate just fine on DC current.
This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Here's the next reply I got from Lionel re: this issue:
Another possibility to consider - the CW-80 has two sets of output posts. One is variable voltage controlled by the throttle handle, the other is a fixed voltage intended for accessories. You can set the accessory voltage through using a combination of the horn and whistle buttons and the throttle handle.
Set the throttle handle at 18 volts to power the track, and aqdjust the accessory voltage to something appropiate for the crossing gates and the gate man.
Oy! LionChief and LionChief Plus engines all run at 18v AC OR DC. The remote communicates directly with the loco, so the power source type does not effect.
All trackside accessories should be powered by a power source other than track power. This was true in 1936, 1956, 1996 and today. Otherwise the train will slow on the activator tracks, or the accessory will operate poorly at low speeds.
The Gateman, crossing gates etc should have the power to a properly phased accessory power supply, while the ground to the outside insulated rail section. This will work with LionChief, Legacy, TMCC, MPC, Post War, Pre War, Standard Gauge, and even Marx wind-up!
Jon
Whether operating the accessory slows down a train connected to the same power source depends on whether the Lion-Chief scheme regulates the motor voltage or speed.
If a separate supply powers the accessory, it is not necessary that the accessory and track supplies have the same voltage, the same waveform, the same frequency, nor the same phase. In fact there is an advantage in having the opposite phase (for AC of the same waveform and frequency) or the opposite polarity (for DC).
The train WILL slow down because power is going to the operation of the accessory as well as the train. Try using track power to run a #145 Gateman and a train when all you've got is a 38 watt wall-wart!
In a properly-wired AC accessory buss wherein the power is coming from a dedicated transformer to run accessories and switches, with various taps being used for various voltages, the ground for the insulated rails and switches come back in the outside rails to the track transformer which indeed must be in phase with the accessory transformer!
If the train slows down when the accessory operates, it is because the motor voltage has changed as a result of the track voltage's changing, in which case the Lion-Chief circuitry in the locomotive is not regulating motor voltage or speed. On the other hand, if it were regulating motor voltage or speed inside the locomotive, the locomotive would not slow down until the track voltage dropped below the required minimum voltage for regulation. So, if the train does slow down, it is not simply because power is going to the accessory, but also because the Lion-Chief device is not able to correct for a resulting drop in track voltage. Whether it was designed to do that or not, I do not know.
The interaction between the track-power circuit and the accessory circuit is that their currents use the same return path to the sources, that is, the outside rails of the track. There is no electrical reason why two dissimilar currents cannot flow in the same conductor, in particular, two sinusoidal alternating currents of opposite phase (or two direct currents of opposite polarity). In fact, when two currents of opposite phase (or polarity) flow in the same conductor, for example, 4 amperes for the train and 3 amperes for the accessory, the net current is the difference of their amplitudes, rather than the sum, for example, 1 ampere rather than 7. (4-3=1 rather than 4+3=7)
This is good, because it reduces the voltage drop between the supplies and the loads, and because it makes it unnecessary to use heavier wire for the bus (a "buss" is something else) connecting the supplies to the track than would be needed for the train or accessory load alone.
But the train and accessory currents may also be completely dissimilar, for example, DC for the train and AC for the accessory. In that case, the net current is greater than for either load alone, but not as much as if they were both powered by same-phase AC or same-polarity DC. For the same examples as above, the currents combine as the root-sum-square (RSS, the square-root of the sum of the squares), or 5 amperes rather than 7. (4*4+3*3=5*5 rather than 4+3=7)
Another thought: This same out-of-phase trick saves metal in delivering electricity to American residences. Much of the world uses a single two-wire circuit at about 240 volts, about twice the American standard. If we did nothing but halve the voltage and double the current (for the same amount of power), we would need wires with 2.5 times as much copper or aluminum.
Instead, we use a three-wire circuit, with 120 volts between each of two non-grounded (black and red) wires and a grounded (white) neutral. This is like powering the trains on the black and white wires and the accessories on the red and white wires. The white wire carries the difference between the return currents for both loads, like the outside rails of our track, and it does not need to be any bigger than the black and red wires. The result is that we actually need 1.5 times as much metal in our wires as they do in Europe, but that's only 60 percent as much metal as we would need if we had a simple two-wire 120-volt system.
lionelsoni Another thought: This same out-of-phase trick saves metal in delivering electricity to American residences. Much of the world uses a single two-wire circuit at about 240 volts, about twice the American standard. If we did nothing but halve the voltage and double the current (for the same amount of power), we would need wires with 2.5 times as much copper or aluminum. Instead, we use a three-wire circuit, with 120 volts between each of two non-grounded (black and red) wires and a grounded (white) neutral. This is like powering the trains on the black and white wires and the accessories on the red and white wires. The white wire carries the difference between the return currents for both loads, like the outside rails of our track, and it does not need to be any bigger than the black and red wires. The result is that we actually need 1.5 times as much metal in our wires as they do in Europe, but that's only 60 percent as much metal as we would need if we had a simple two-wire 120-volt system.
True enough, but the out-of-phase method also adds the circuit voltages!
Let's suppose you have the track at full throttle, 18 volts, and have an insulated rail running a 151 semaphore that is connected out-of-phase as you suggest. It is true that when the train runs over the insulated rail its speed will decrease less than it would with the in-phase connection. In fact, the speed may actually tend to increase, rather than decrease! But it is also true that, with no train present, the voltage between the insulated rail and the center rail will be 18 + 14 = 32 volts.
Whether you are bothered by this is up to you, but you will definitely notice it with sweaty hands!
I know what you mean about a hand on the track: In college, I belonged to an HO club that used 24 volts for occupancy detection. I quickly learned not to put a hand on the track when reaching for something far back on the layout. With enough pressure, pretty low voltages can give you a shock, even with dry hands.
Except for some specific purposes for which the voltage limit is 30 volts, the NEC (Article 720) considers 48 volts to be somewhat safe, with no power or current limitation. But, as you say, it is up to you!
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