I was given a 1946 1405W Lionel Train Set that was only used a few times. I have cleaned and lubricated cars, cleaned the tracks and set it up. The 1666 locomotive ran great! The whistle tender is in great shape, but will not blow when the whistle button on transformer is pressed. I disassembled, inspected, lubricated and cleaned. Initially the turbine for the whistle was stiff but lubrication freed it up. Still no respose. I placed on track wihout cover and lifted the contact below the relay and Eureka, it not only worked, but sounded great. Given that it works when the contact is lifted, is it possibly the button on the transformer that is not working? I disassemble the transformer and inspected the wiring and it appears intact. Could it be something else?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Tully
The rectifier disc in the transformer may be bad.
There are three "steps" or positions in the whistle control - run(out) lift/energize(half way down) and hold(all the way down), and the train should react a little different(speed/bulb brightness) at each step - is it doing this?
Rob
Rob,
When I depress the whistle button, the locomotive does act differently and the headlight dims. the whistle button is not a button, but more of a slide type of button that goes into the transformer at the top to one side. It is the lionel type 1402 75 watt transformer.
The Lionel specification is that the relay should operate at 1.1 volts DC. So, before you tear into the transformer, stick a piece of paper between the relay contacts and try to operate the relay with only a 1.5-volt dry cell powering the tender. The whistle of course will not blow; but, if the relay armature operates, the tender is not the problem and the transformer may be the culprit.
Bob Nelson
Bob,
Thanks for the reply. I am a novice so forgive my ingnorance...how do I connect a 1.5 Volt battery to the tender?
In addition, are you trying the whistle tender by itself, or while it is running with the train?I ask because often the transformer won't put out enough DC offset without a proper load. Sometimes even the locomotive and tender by themselves won't be a big enough load. In those cases, making the train longer to make the engine work harder, or putting a few light bulbs in parallel with the tracks fixes the problem (such as illuminated cars).
I actually had only the engine and tender and set-up the track in a small oval for testing. I was also just testing the tender on the one piece of powered up track. I'll try with the other cars and see what happens. My fear was that the there might be a problem with the armiture, but we'll see.
I just set things up and noticed that when I depress the whislte button, the headlight on the engine gets brighter and the train moves faster, but no response from the tender.
As you press the button, there is a voltage boost. So yes, the headlight will get brighter. Your locomotive and tender may not draw enough to make the whistle relay operate. Try putting all the cars on as well.
If the whistle still doesn't work, then follow the other tips given to test the relay itsekf.
Got it...I think I have to hook up the coupler remote as it has the electric couplers.
Put the tender by itself on the track, with the shell off so that you can see the whistle relay and with a bit of paper between the contacts so that, if the relay operates, it cannot actually connect the whistle motor to the 1.5-volt DC track voltage. Instead of a transformer, connect the dry cell to the track as if you were going to power a train with it. Polarity doesn't matter. If the relay is okay, the armature should lift, as if to close the contacts, when you connect the cell to the track.
Thanks, I will attempt that. Any idea where I can get a 1.5 volt battery? I did try some of the other suggestions posted. I added all cars ran the whole train around the track, no affect on the whistle. It seems the car is getting power as physically raising the armiture gets it to work. The armiture does not move at all while using the transformer, so I will try the battery approach. In trying to understand how the armiture works, is the round thing above it an electromagnet? Does energizing it create magnatism which pulls the armiture up? If so, could that be the problem?
I appreciate your expertise...Thanks!
Tully Any idea where I can get a 1.5 volt battery?
Any idea where I can get a 1.5 volt battery?
A regular "D" cell flashlight battery from any store will work fine.
Tully I added all cars ran the whole train around the track, no affect on the whistle. It seems the car is getting power as physically raising the armiture gets it to work. The armiture does not move at all while using the transformer, so I will try the battery approach. In trying to understand how the armiture works, is the round thing above it an electromagnet? Does energizing it create magnatism which pulls the armiture up? If so, could that be the problem?
I added all cars ran the whole train around the track, no affect on the whistle. It seems the car is getting power as physically raising the armiture gets it to work. The armiture does not move at all while using the transformer, so I will try the battery approach. In trying to understand how the armiture works, is the round thing above it an electromagnet? Does energizing it create magnatism which pulls the armiture up? If so, could that be the problem?
A couple of other things:
- Adding additional cars that don't have lights or something else that draws current may (or may not) help your test. If you have, say, a searchlight car adding that would help draw more current for this type of test.
- There are two differrent things called "armatures" in play here: one that is part of the relay (which, as you suspected, is indeed pulled up by an electromagnet in the relay when DC power is applied - thus closing the switch in the relay and allowing AC current to flow to the whistle motor), and a second which is part of the whistle motor and spins when AC power is allowed to flow to it via the relay. In this discussion, it's important to know which armature is being referred to in order to make sense of things!
One thought as well: perhaps it is possible that everything is working fine, but you are not running your train with enough voltage to get an old whistle motor running. Be sure to have the track voltage up around 12-14V (which will then get boosted by your transformer, which you saw happen when the headlight got brighter) to ensure there's enough voltage to make the motor spin.
IT consultant by day, 3rd generation Lionel guy (raising a 3YO 4th generation Lionel Lil' Man) by night in the suburbs of the greatest city in the world - Chicago. Home of the ever-changing Illinois Concretus Ry.
Tried the battery test and no reaction from the armiture below the relay. Could it be the WSR-1 relay is bad? I confirmed the battery was good prior to test and even tried a different one.
Can you confirm continuity to the WSR-1 coil?
My voltage meter is at my boat which is about 75 miles away. I could pick one up at Harbor Freight as they are cheap. Not a pro with multimeters though. To test, would I put a lead on the top and bottom where the wires are soldered above the contacts, or the black wire to the thin (non-insulated) bare one that come out of the wind and attaches on the opposite side of the relay to the outside? Sorry to sound like a novice...but I am.
Also, I am assuming a lack of continuity in the relay would indicate a bad relay and visa versa?
It could be the relay coil itself, or the wiring between the coil and the track. If you have a pair of clip leads, you can try to connect the dry cell directly to the coil, bypassing any tender wiring.
I did try the dry cell directly to the coil with no response from the relay armiture.
I also inspected the wiring between the track and coil and it is intact and appears the insulation is not compromised along the run. When I lift the relay armiture to make contact, the whistle blows good and strong. The armiture will not move on it's own.
Did you check the relay coil with a meter? It sounds like the coil is open circuit. Inspect it carefully and see of the ends of the coil wire are going somewhere and are not broken.
I will check with meter when I get one, but the insulated wire that enters the coil in the middle seems secure and the uninsulated wire that exits atop the coil and attaches to frame of rely is secure. I am assuming those are the two wires to the coil I need to be concerned with?
OK...got the meter, checked continuity from the pickup roller at the wheels to the armiture relay and there is continuity. I am not sure at what points to connect the leads to the relay to check for continuity? If anyone can shed some light...that would be great.
I confirmed continuity all the way into the relay. Not sure where to check at the other end of the relay. Thus far, everything I touch to is not showing continuity. I touched to the botton of the relay below the copper washers (lugs), tried the uninulated wire coming out of the relay. Not sure what else to try?
That wire coming out of the relay, although it looks uninsulated, in fact is.
You want to find the two wires coming out of the relay coil, and check for continuity of the coil by checking where they are soldered to their connection lugs.
If you have continuity here, then connect your dry cell battery to these same two points and check for relay operation.
Are they soldered to opposite sides? One has the black insulation and is next to the other insulated wire above the point of contact while the other is on the opposite side and connects to the frame of the relay?
I see you are in Hopewell...I am in Poughkeepsie.
TullyAre they soldered to opposite sides? One has the black insulation and is next to the other insulated wire above the point of contact while the other is on the opposite side and connects to the frame of the relay?
Opposite sides - see diagram below - 1 lug on right, 1 on bottom left.
Tully I see you are in Hopewell...I am in Poughkeepsie.
Yes, only 287 miles away, and on the main line of the Finger Lakes Railway(Former NYCRR Auburn Road)!
Those are the ones I thought...no reaction whatsoever on the multimeter when I touch the pins to those two lugs.
We have a Hopewell Junction about 8 miles away. Beautiful country up where you are...as a child we once vacationed on Lake Conesus and my Nephew was married in Aurora and had the reception at the Aurora Inn on Cayuga.
Thank you all for your input. I went ahead and purchased the relay on ebay, got it, tested it, installed it, and the whistle works like a champ! I would have been lost without the great feedback I received...I really appreciate it!
Dave
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