Modern Train Control (TMCC / Legacy) for a Conventional Post-War Layout - Where to Start?

[James Huff]

I also making my debut on this forum and I have only prewar and postwar lionel equipment but I never built a permanent layout before just medium sized one train Christmas layouts. The size of my layout plan is 6x9. I plan to use my postwar 275w zw 190w kw and lw transformers as well as 3 50 to 75w transformers if necessary to power 13 022 turnouts and two 711 turnouts 2 to 3 trains running at once divided into 3 main block sections one 497 coaling station one icing station one 362 barrel loader and one 364 log shed as well as one 154 highway signal one automatic gate with lights two 47 double crossing gates one 253 signal eight 153 block signals one  radar tower one 450 overhead block signal all controlled by tmcc I'm still finalizing the actual track plan but before I done finalizing my track plan I want to know what tmcc equipment I need to run all the listed equipment running only prewar and postwar lionel engines once I actually confirm my track plan I will upload a picture of the proposed track plan I will need some help how to wire it for tmcc now I laid a general idea of what equipment I have and want to use on my ideal layout I have a few power questions 

first is my 275w zw 190w kw and lw enough to power at least 2 to 3 large postwar engines that have smoke magnetraction and whistle or horn pulling a medium sized train with prewar and operating and passenger cars   aa well as the switches lights and accessories or do I need more power 

second what tmcc components do I need to run all the listed equipment via the cab 1 remote 

 

third can I even use my 3 large transformers instead of powerhouse transformers 

 

fourth once I provide the track plan how do I wire the layout safely with tmcc 

again this my first time posting on any model train site forum and I excited for all the help and advice I will recieve for planning and building the layout of my dreams 

[JTrains]

TrainFan1225

The best explanation of these systems are a few dvd's that have been produced. The latest one is from TM Books and video called "Modern O gauge remote control" which just premiered at the TCA York,PA train show. it uses a split screen showing how to wire and use the systems. It's definitely worth the $20 bucks.

Thanks for the tip - I put this on my Christmas list and got it as a stocking stuffer.  I've watched it once and it indeed has a lot of good information synthesized together coherently.  It's the kind of video that Lionel should have produced itself and have on its web site.  Their YouTube clips are packed with information, but unless you already have a general understanding it's hard IMHO to see how it all is supposed to come together from a conventional perspective.

[rtraincollector]

I've run cab1 with command base for years off a original ZW you just need to put some fast acting breaker/fuses in line I did it every where power came into the tracks. I never had a problem You can pick up a fair one around $100 on the bay give a little take a litte depends whats going on at the time ( ie lot of folks looking or not ) 

 

[JTrains]

dmestan

I too am looking to control conventional locos with remote by controlling track voltage.  Why not consider getting a used ZW-C?  ZW-L is overkill and unnecesary if you have no intention of purchasing legacy locos.  I picked up a ZW-C from the bay for under $250.  They pop up all the time, just need to be patient to get one at a reasonable price.  Cab-1 remote you can get for $50-60.

Hehe...agreed - I was more poking a little fun at the thought of any transformer (that doesn't come with its own 20' mounting pole...) MSRPing for nearly a grand.  I'm still contemplating exactly what to do - because I might well on occasion like to run at least one engine with the features that TMCC makes possible. 

[dmestan]

I too am looking to control conventional locos with remote by controlling track voltage.  Why not consider getting a used ZW-C?  ZW-L is overkill and unnecesary if you have no intention of purchasing legacy locos.  I picked up a ZW-C from the bay for under $250.  They pop up all the time, just need to be patient to get one at a reasonable price.  Cab-1 remote you can get for $50-60.

don 

[ADCX Rob]

There is more good info HERE on Neil Young's Coil Couplers website to get you ramped up to speed on the capability of the TMCC system.

The ZW-L is a luxury, not a necessity for either Command or conventional operation. It is powerful, capable of 4 power districts of up to 10 continuous amps output each(but limited to 620 total output max) or equivalent to about 6 Type V transformers(~110 watts continuous output).

[JTrains]

ADCX Rob

JTrains

Ugh - TMCC doesn't broadcast its control signal at all when the PM-1 is in conventional mode?

 

 Well, no, that's not true. It has nothing at to do with the position of the PM-1 switch, but rather the absence of one very important component - the 12911 TMCC Command Base which is connected to the layout with just one wire to the common ground(anywhere).

Ah, with your clarification and the document you linked to I now see the purpose of the Command Base and what is possible with TMCC and LEGACY with conventional equipment.  I think I extrapolated too much from your comment that "there is no command signal, just track voltage" - my bad. I was curious as to why the PS-1 wouldn't still be able to broadcast a control signal in conventional mode and chalked it up to something an EE would better understand - but I was erroneously ascribing to the PS-1 some of the functionality that's actually in the Command Base.

So, it appears I can indeed retrofit existing conventional equipment with a combination of the various Lionel controller units - and if I wanted to do something more unusual, some of the products from ERR Co.  Now this all looks cool – a bit pricy ($900 MSRP for a ZW-L?!?), but cool.

Is it just me, or does Lionel do a p**s poor job of explaining all of these technologies?  To me their web sites are a hot mess – kinda pretty with lots of (too large) graphics, but difficult to find information unless you REALLY know what you’re look for.  I can’t help but think that having a section that explains all of this for long-time, conventional Lionel customers would increase sales.

Thanks again for all your insights!

[ADCX Rob]

The link was broken, now fixed, here is the url:

https://www.lionelsupport.com/media/servicedocuments/71-2911-250.pdf

[JTrains]

ADCX Rob

Here is the Complete Guide To Command Control from the Lionel website - it is sometimes hard to find when you are looking for it specifically, and it provides a better overview than trying to piece together the info from each component manual.

Could you please post that link again (or another way) - it doesn't seem to point to anything.  I tried searching and rooting around the various Lionel web sites and couldn't find it - they seem to keep this stuff well-hidden!

[ADCX Rob]

Here is the Complete Guide To Command Control from the Lionel website - it is sometimes hard to find when you are looking for it specifically, and it provides a better overview than trying to piece together the info from each component manual.

[ADCX Rob]

JTrains

Ugh - TMCC doesn't broadcast its control signal at all when the PM-1 is in conventional mode?

Well, no, that's not true. It has nothing at to do with the position of the PM-1 switch, but rather the absence of one very important component - the 12911 TMCC Command Base which is connected to the layout with just one wire to the common ground(anywhere).

I have all conventional equipment like you, however, I do have a Command Base on each layout(only one per layout required). This is the next step in "TMCC land". The Command Base is the source of the command signal(s) to each & every command equipped piece of equipment. In my case, I use command signals to control SC-1 & SC-2 switch and accessory controllers for remote(from the handheld CAB-1) control of switches and accessories.

The CAB-1 communicates to the Command Base with a digitally modulated (typically - there are optional frequencies)27.125mhz radio signal, the Command Base issues the command signal(s) to the command equipment via a combination of the track rails and the household AC wiring.

 

[TrainFan1225]

Everything Lionel has made can be controlled by legacy or tmcc. The systems require use of a powermaster per seperate section/loop. The best explanation of these systems are a few dvd's that have been produced. The latest one is from TM Books and video called "Modern O gauge remote control" which just premiered at the TCA York,PA train show. it uses a split screen showing how to wire and use the systems. There were 2 from OGR video's that were based on tmcc(slang=cab1) only. The new one has both tmcc and legacy(slang=cab2) in it. If you are going to start using either system, I would consider getting the video. It's definitely worth the $20 bucks.

[JTrains]

ADCX Rob

JTrains

• Other than acting as a remote controlled rheostat, what other actions could be performed with TMCC on conventional equipment?

 

Nothing that the engine or rolling stock doesn't already have - there is no command signal, just track voltage(with DC offsets for whistle and bell) to run trains.

Ugh - TMCC doesn't broadcast its control signal at all when the PM-1 is in conventional mode?  As Dino would say, "Ain't that a kick in the head."  That sure limits what one could do with a little simple retrofitting of key pieces of one's layout.  At least they preserved an ability to generate the DC necessary to activate an old school whistle relay.  It would also explain why Lionel doesn't spend a lot of energy or product development trying to convince customers with conventional layouts to upgrade their existing equipment.

I think the net-net of all of this is that for me TMCC and LEGACY just aren't an attractive proposition for an exclusively post-war layout. A portable throttle and whistle controller would be nice to have - but I'd rather put that money into buying more conventional equipment and track.

Because isn't Lionel completely stopping production of O tubular forever?  I better stock up immediately (let the flames begin...)

[ADCX Rob]

Here is the correct diagram from the manual:

And here are the basic operating instructions:

[ADCX Rob]

JTrains

• After running a conventional engine on a track segment, would the PM-1 need to be completely removed from the power flow in order to then run a TMCC engine or can you toggle it from a "conventional power mode" to "TMCC power mode" (the latter, as I’m conceptualizing it, is simply a pass-thru of the full 14-18V to the track)?  The book that Buckeye linked to that this was selectable on the PM-1 with a "Mode Switch" – which would be good.

The PM-1 is switched between CMD & CONV and stays installed.

JTrains

• In such a configuration, does the PM-1 deliver AC or DC to the track?  For that matter, in a TMCC power mode layout is AC or DC being fed to the track? From my reading it seems that it is AC in both cases– as apparently even the newer Lionel "DC motor" engines are simply rectifying AC current from the track for their own purposes internally.

It's all AC to the track. Some locos have DC permag motors that run on DC(rectified AC) provided by the onboard circuitry.

JTrains

• It would seem that you could not run a conventional engine and a TMCC engine (or other TMCC rolling stock) simultaneously in the same track segment - as the TMCC engine wouldn’t be getting the 18V it would be expecting as input (and wouldn't be able to respond to things like, say, a horn request if the voltage had been taken to 0 by the PM-1 in order to stop the conventional engine).  Is this correct?

The TMCC engine will not respond to anything with no power to the track.

JTrains

• Other than acting as a remote controlled rheostat, what other actions could be performed with TMCC on conventional equipment?

Nothing that the engine or rolling stock doesn't already have - there is no command signal, just track voltage(with DC offsets for whistle and bell) to run trains.

[JTrains]

ADCX Rob

 There is no accurate diagram of conventional TMCC Trainmaster control. The text is accurate, but it points to diagram 4 which is all about Command control, not conventional.

Hehe...I thought I noticed that, too.  It seems Figure 2 is accurate for conventional trains using TMCC.

[JTrains]

Thank you so much! I think I'm getting it now (at least in the TMCC world – I’ll come back to LEGACY later). If I've got this correct, for a conventional set of equipment the PM-1 (in concert with the CAB-1 controller) acts as a sort of remote control rheostat to mediate the voltage between a traditional transformer (cranked up to 14 - 18V, depending upon who you listen to) and the track.  The "Figure #2" in the book that Buckeye linked to is the exact diagram (which you well-described in words) that I was looking for - it says it's a Lionel diagram, but try and find it on their web site!  Assuming this is all right, a couple of follow-ups/confirmations:

• After running a conventional engine on a track segment, would the PM-1 need to be completely removed from the power flow in order to then run a TMCC engine or can you toggle it from a "conventional power mode" to "TMCC power mode" (the latter, as I’m conceptualizing it, is simply a pass-thru of the full 14-18V to the track)?  The book that Buckeye linked to that this was selectable on the PM-1 with a "Mode Switch" – which would be good.
• In such a configuration, does the PM-1 deliver AC or DC to the track?  For that matter, in a TMCC power mode layout is AC or DC being fed to the track? From my reading it seems that it is AC in both cases– as apparently even the newer Lionel "DC motor" engines are simply rectifying AC current from the track for their own purposes internally.
• It would seem that you could not run a conventional engine and a TMCC engine (or other TMCC rolling stock) simultaneously in the same track segment - as the TMCC engine wouldn’t be getting the 18V it would be expecting as input (and wouldn't be able to respond to things like, say, a horn request if the voltage had been taken to 0 by the PM-1 in order to stop the conventional engine).  Is this correct?
• Other than acting as a remote controlled rheostat, what other actions could be performed with TMCC on conventional equipment? I would envision that such equipment would need to be retrofitted with a TMCC-aware receiver of some time (I can imagine, for example, a receiver with a switch that could be added to a traditional engine to turn the cab lights on and off) - but I don't see anything like this in the Lionel product line.  Or is this where 3rd party equipment from someone like The Electric RR Company comes into play?

[ADCX Rob]

Buckeye Riveter

Scroll down on this link and you will see the diagrams.

There is no accurate diagram of conventional TMCC Trainmaster control. The text is accurate, but it points to diagram 4 which is all about Command control, not conventional.

[8ntruck]

The only tidbit I have to add is that the TPC 400 (and probably the TPC 300) do not play well with a CW 80 power supply.  It appears that the TPC's want a pure sine wave form on the incoming AC power.  The CW 80's do not provide that.

This caused me a bit of frustration when I was setting up my Legacy system, so I am passing it on to hopefully help others.

Since you have a type V, that won't be a problem. 

I noticed that Lionel is no longer listing the TPC 300 or TPC 400 in their catalog, this may also be a moot point.  I do not have any experience with the Powermasters, so I can't comment on their compatability with the CW 80.

Good luck.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Scroll down on this link and you will see the diagrams.

https://books.google.com/books?id=GXeK64p3OUkC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=lionel+trains+circuit+breaker&source=bl&ots=CD5Am9W_2x&sig=IJf0E39f0afXdjDH45RkOGHVi78&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj-mbC6_KfJAhVJqR4KHereAWgQ6AEIggEwCw#v=onepage&q=lionel%20trains%20circuit%20breaker&f=false

 

[mgraziani]

What Rob said above is correct. The CAB-1 plus as many powermasters as you have power districts and that will give you remote control of the track voltage, bell and whistle.

Again, this isn't true command control in that you're not talking directly to the loco. You're simply remotely controlling the voltage and bell/whistle actuation for each power district.

Thus, you won't be able to run multiple locos independently on a single power block but it's still nice to have walk-around capability with very little install hassle and not having to alter any of your conventional locos.

Mike

 

[ADCX Rob]

The Type V is a great start.

If you want to control trains from the CAB-1 remote, Use one PM-1 PowerMaster per power district between the V and the track(kind of like the 167). For example, Use A-U & B-U knobs on the V(set to full voltage) powering 2 PM-1s. The CAB-1 talks to each PM-1 as "Track 1" & "Track 2", and you control the train with the remote - it does what the 167 did(direction & whistle) and adds in speed control, bell(for bell equipped trains), momentum(low, med, or hi), and stall voltage(not important to get started). All switches, uncouplers, and accessories work the same as before - this is just for train control.

That's all it takes to get started with handheld/remote control - the bare minimum is the CAB-1, a PM-1, and the cable to connect the PM-1 to the V(it is a Molex cable with an inline fuse, the track is connected to the binding posts on the PM-1 just like on the V).

[tinplatacis]

From what I have seen in Lionel's Ads and attempts to sell product, any transformer producing ACcurrent can power the system. The rest Is wired between the transformer and the tracks. I personally stuck conventional as it filled all my needs, but if this is bc of 2yo, I'd suggest the LionChief trains instead. It'll limit you a bit, but ought to work. Who knows, mebbe there's an RC fan out there who could help you put together your own version?

[JTrains]

rtraincollector

Now I'm guessing you already have TMCC or Legacy if not thats need or at least the hand control and the powermaster 

I am currently 100% post-war conventional - so I don't have TMCC or Legacy.  All I've got for "train control" is a Type V transformer and a #167 whistle control...  For example, how does a classic transformer fit into these systems - or does it at all?

[rtraincollector]

I have never owned Legacy but from what I understand the principal is still the same ( I had original TMCC) theres 2 ways of going about it both basically same just different equipment. 1st what I recommend is a TPC-300 or TPC-400 ( the number = the watts it can handle) you need one for each loop of track you have  the other is a power master both do the same thing they control the votage to the track with the use of your hand control Now I'm guessing you already have TMCC or Legacy if not thats need or at least the hand control and the powermaster as you can I've been told do this with just a power master and a cab1 but again you need a power master per loop of track and this cannot be done with a TPC and cab1 by itself ( cab1 = controller) Hope more with more knoweledge jump in but thats the basics

[JTrains]

This feels like a stupid question, but here goes.

 

As the owner of a fair amount of post-war equipment (and nothing made after 1985), I've begun to explore what's now possible in the way of Lionel train control systems for those items.  Having spent a good part of today trying to get my head around the information in various documents, owners' manuals, forum postings, videos, and the like I think I’m more confused than when I woke up.  I thought I'd find a simple, straight-forward resource that would explain what can be done and how to do it.  This seems to be eluding me.  I find references, for example, that Legacy can "control everything Lionel’s ever made" – and then seemingly ignoring the true "legacy" products made prior to the 1990s.

 

Can anyone recommend something that explains what the possibilities are for an exclusively post-war equipment set?  What am I missing?