S scale layouts

[lionelsoni]

American Flyer AC locomotives, like Lionel AC locomotives, with universal motors can be run on AC or DC, but do not respond to reversal of the polarity of the DC voltage.

American Flyer DC locomotives used a motor different from the universal motors in their AC locomotives.  They replaced the field coil with a permanent magnet.  This made the motor sensitive to the polarity of the track voltage, just like the motors used in most HO locomotives; so no reversing unit was installed.

Any universal motor can also be made to operate this way by placing a bridge rectifier upstream of the field or the armature, but not both.  Whether done by replacing the field coil with a permanent magnet or by installing a rectifier, modifying a universal motor for reversing by track-voltage polarity makes it unable to operate on AC and therefore no longer universal.

American Flyer called the full-wave rectifier that they sold for use with their DC locomotives the "directronic rectifier".  It was wired between the transformer and the track and included a polarity-reversing switch.  The "rectiformer" combined a rectifier with a transformer, as its name suggests. 

[Jim and Steven RR]

thanks so if I go the path of going DC only will Lionel and other builder with the new trains will work with DC?

 

If they work on DC then the PLC of my own will be simlpe than AC because of I do not need to run a hold votlage so I can stop my train when I want to swichting train to different tracks and not to have a train is suck in N when I want the train to run

[stebbycentral]

cmulligan01

American Flyer trains are designs, some of them at least, are designed to be easily converted to DC. I think there's a place for a recitifer in the tender.

In the late 1940's American Flyer manufactured devices called "rectiformers" designed to allow DC operation of AC locomotives.  The "rectiformer" was an external unit placed in the circuit between the AC power supply and the track.  Gilbert could do this because their locomotives were powered by "universal" AC/DC motors.  The AC reversing mechanism in the locomotive would be disabled (there is a lockout for this) and train direction was controlled by a switch on the "rectiformer".  The idea didn't catch on with the public however and Gilbert pretty much abandoned it by 1950.  

As stated it's not hard to convert a Flyer locomotive to DC operations by replacing the AC reverse unit with a bridge rectifier.  THere are wiring instructions for this available on the Internet.  Most individuals who go this route will go all the way and replace the old series wound motor with a modern DC can motor.

[stebbycentral]

Jim and Steven RR

My question is more about  building modular layouts and the controls

All I Know is the old school,  my own controls programmable logic controller or hybrid of MTH an Lionel

 

If you are serious about exploring alternate command control systems and you are on Facebook there are two groups that you may find helpful;

"S-Helper/American Models/ and other S gauge and 1/164 scale Trains"

"American Flyer Trains"

Both groups contain members who are conversant with retrofitting DC motors and DCC command control systems into Flyer locomotives.  I sure that any one of them would be glad to lend you their expertise. They can also give you the names of hobby shops who sell kits for these types of conversions.  Some people will even do the conversion for you as a paid service. 

Me, I'm old school.   It's AC or nothing.

 

[cmulligan01]

American Flyer trains are designs, some of them at least, are designed to be easily converted to DC. I think there's a place for a recitifer in the tender.

I don't think space will be a problem for decoders. There are decoders for Z scale. S gauge of course will be bigger with the bigger draw but if you convert to DC  that won't be as much of an issue.

If you are talking PLC's (are you an I&C engineer) you should be able to convert the engines to DC in your sleep. I believe either say they will run smoother if you decide to go DCC or Legacy or DCS or your custom designed system.

There's a guy with a guy with a well known layout who I think has been published but I can remember anything about him that's done this with all his. I think he is on Youtube.

[AFGP9]

I too have 1950's and late 1940's American Flyer trains. I would suggest looking into Lionel's TMCC. You will need an AC power source such as 30B AF transformer or a Lionel ZW. Then you will need the TMCC components. This system will allow you to run later TMCC equipped locomotives with your older stuff at the same time. Check with a train shop with knowledge in Lionel to explain or a vender at a train show. This system will allow you to control your locomotives just as any AC transformer would and you won't have to do a thing to your old locomotives. Keep in mind this system is no longer produced by Lionel but is common at train shows and on eBay. Unfortunately it isn't exactly cheap.

I must add, with full disclosure, I had a problem with my system not running properly. However, I found a wiring problem in a new section that I had added. I had crossed the wires of a track power drop. There are many helpful people on this forum which can also help you with this.

 

[Jim and Steven RR]

thanks

The one problem I see is the size of the locos of old s scale af trains will not have room for the decoder.

like the 4-4-0

if there is no space then I will have to go to my own control progam

 

[IRONROOSTER]

According to Lionel and MTH their latest locomotives (CAB2 and ProtoSound3) will operate on DCC, AC, DC, as well their respective propritary controllers.

I have tried MTH's ProtoSound 3 in a RailKing locomotive with my NCE DCC system as well as AC and it works both ways (A small switch is turned by screwdriver for DCC).  DCC has great slow speed control.

Older Flyer of course will require modification to add DCC.

Good luck

Paul

[Laurastom]

Gilbert and new Lionel Flyer are tinplate or high rail depending upon the layout style and track system selected. They are not scale, S scale would require different track, wheels and possibly couplers. Any new production Lionel S will run on original Gilbert track with original Gilbert transformers. I run both legacy and original Gilbert on the same layout. Wider radius curves such as the 30" radius SHS track make all the equipment look and operate better. Tom

[Jim and Steven RR]

My question is more about  building modular layouts and the controls

All I Know is the old school,  my own controls programmable logic controller or hybrid of MTH an Lionel

 

[stebbycentral]

The basics of layout construction are pretty much the same across all scales; benchwork, track planning and track laying, scenery, lighting, etc.  If you have built any kind of a layout before you will find it all works out the same.  The primary difference will come with wiring the layout as that all depends upon how you plan to power your equipment.  And that depends upon whether you go traditional or modern.  There is no DCC in S-scale, unless it's do-it-yourself. The modern "Flyonel" locomotives are built to run on the same proprietary command-control systems that Lionel has developed for their O-scale lines.  50's Flyer runs on good old AC current to the rails.  Hybrid solutions are also possible.   So you will want to study the materials that come with your train-control system.  Other than that, it's all "by the book".

 

[Jim and Steven RR]

I have gown up with the ideal to build an HO layout but that changed when My Grandmother on my dad's side of the family.

 

Now I am a proud owner of some 1950s-1960 s scale American Flyer trains.

I have a plan to run the 1950s trains with the new Lionel AF,  MTH and others trains mix.

What do I need to know to build a working layout.