TMCC operation of convential AF locomotives

[AFGP9]

I have a TMCC system that I have run my conventional American Flyer engines with. I have the Cab 1, Power Master, and Trainmaster Command Base and the proper cables all bought new. It all worked fine when I bought it 2 years ago. It has sat unused until recently. When I tried to start an engine up I got nothing. I re-programand the Cab-1 and got very little movment from the locomotive. I tried 3 different lcomotives which I know run fine. Same result. I also have to continually turn the red knob to get even the silghtest movement which isn't the normal way of doing things. Can any one shed some light on what my problem is? 

[rrlineman]

Most likely the electronics has crapped out. Lionel has a lot of problems with this that they keep under wraps. I would suggest calling Lionel's service shop and talk to a tech. He might be able to help you.

The store I do AF repairs for sends ALL electronic problems back to Lionel. if it is out of warranty, and Lionel doesn't want to repair it, then the owner is stuck telling a customer. He has a guy in New Jersey that does repairs to some of the circuit boards, but Lionel doesn't release diagrams to repair them. it is a hit or miss situation. I personally tell customers I do not repair anything that has more then a simple E-unit board and a horn board for that reason. and it is only going to get worse as they flip systems each year. wish you best of luck with this problem.

[Buckeye Riveter]

I have been running TMCC with a CAB-1 for 15 years.  Even though they have been manhandled by a two year old, they work albeit I've replaced an antenna.  Here's where I would start to find the problem.

What is the status of the voltage to the track? 

Is the track clean?

Is the locomotive wheels clean?

Is all wiring solid and connected properly? 

Get out the instruction manual and make sure you are programming the locomotives correctly. 

 

Just my  because my layout sits dormat for months until I fire it up again. 

BTW, are there batteries in your locomotives?  

[rtraincollector]

I had a simular problem about a month ago it turned out my batteries in the cab one where not strong enough to run it I did get horn,bell,crew&tower coms and directional but would no run the engines oh try pushing the boost and if it moves and then comes to a stop after letting go that's more and likely your problem batteries in the cab1 

[AFGP9]

There is no voltage to the track unless the the red knob on the CAB 1 is turned on and moves the locomotive. There is no voltage otherwise. Should there be ? The system ran with the way the wiring is now. Nothing has been changed.

The track was cleaned as are all wheels. All wiring was checked as per the manual and is solid.

I forgot to mention in my original post that the batteries in the CAB 1 are new (changed). Also my power source is a ZW which was tuned up by a Lionel station guy I know at the time I bought the TMCC system from him.

There are no batteries in American Flyer Conventional engines. All of my engines, I have 23, are from 1947-1956 and all run when I hook up the ZW to the track direct. All of these engines have been gone over as I bought them. Of cource I do not run all 23. Mainly just the same 4.

I spent some time today going through everything I could think of and have the same result whic is nothing.

[AFGP9]

Thanks for the reply. When I bought this system from a Lionel dealer and hooked it up with my ZW as the power source all was fine. He is no longer in business, (retired). When it did work it really wasn't run that much.

Calling Lionel's service shop is a good idea.

I am tempted to take it all off my lay and just use the ZW and a 30b American Flyer transformer. The reason I don't (yet) is beacuse of the money I have wrapped up in the system. Also the TMCC makes these older locomotives run better for some reason. (when it works) 

[AFGP9]

Since all of my locomotives are conventional and are from 1946-1956 vintage, there is no bell, horn, or crew talk. American Flyer only made 1 locomotive, a #314, (that I have), had a horn in that era.

I tried the pushing the boost. Nothing happened.

Since you found your batteries were not strong enough, what did you do? I thought AA batteries were all the same in strength.

Thanks for the reply.

[lionelsoni]

The voltage of battery cells depends on their internal chemistry.  Carbon-zinc and alkaline cells provide the same voltage (about 1.5 volts), regardless of their size, because their chemistry is similar; but other kinds of cells have other voltages.

A battery (multiple cells connected in series) has an overall voltage that is the sum of the individual cells' voltages.  For example, 9-volt radio batteries may comprise cells with different cell voltages, but include various numbers of cells so that the total voltage is close to 9 volts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(electricity)

[Buckeye Riveter]

AFGP9

There is no voltage to the track unless the the red knob on the CAB 1 is turned on and moves the locomotive. There is no voltage otherwise. Should there be ? The system ran with the way the wiring is now. Nothing has been changed.

Whan a TMCC system is in the command mode, and the power is put to the track with the CAB-1(I use TRK 1 BOOST), 15-18 volts power up instantly on the track.  There are ways to set the voltage higher and lower in  with a TPC. (It has been a long time since I used a powermaster.) You did not say you had or did not have a TPC, so I have assume for my next comment that you are using a powermaster. 

Is the switch on the powermaster in the corrct position for conventional control?

http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/71-2867-250.pdf

 This is a good resource, too.

 http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/70-0000-000.pdf

Now that I think about it, the powermaster overheating was a problem and that is one reason when I upgraded I used a TPC300.  If your powermaster is the problem, most likely a TPC 300 can be found rather inexpensively.  Lionel's new  command systems do not use them anymore from my reading.

 

[ADCX Rob]

AFGP9

I have a TMCC system that I have run my conventional American Flyer engines with. I have the Cab 1, Power Master, and Trainmaster Command Base and the proper cables all bought new.

First things first. What is the purpose of the Command Base on your AF layout?

[Buckeye Riveter]

Here you go Rob.  Start your reading and it is all explained in detail and pictures.

http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/71-2911-251.pdf

http://www.lionel.com/media/servicedocuments/71-2911-250.pdf

My 200' of track is powered by two Lionel  Powerhouse Power Supply, 180 Watt Bricks, one Lionel TMCC Track Power Controller 300 (TPC) (This replaced the Powermaster on my layout.), one Lionel TMCC Command Base and I have two Lionel TMCC CAB-1s that run the whole thing unless I'm running Lionel's new Lionchief Plus equipment.  Incidently, there are some Lionel cables that hook all this together very nicely that I have not listed.

Basically, the CAB-1 directs a signal to the Command Base that then communicates with various items on the layout including accessory circuits, switches, lights, track, locomotives, operating cars (giraffee car)  and the TPC 300 which in my case enables me to run conventional locomotives that have not been converted with ERR. 

Before I installed the TPC and another brick, this is how we ran about 60 feet of track

The power pack on the left of the photo is used to power the accessories only, however the off and on switch to the circuit is a SC-2.

[ADCX Rob]

Buckeye Riveter

Here you go Rob.

So, what you're saying is, after reading through all of this twice, he has no use for the Command Base?

[Buckeye Riveter]

Assuming he has his transformer on full power, similiar to the bricks:

When he flips the switch on the Powermaster to conventional, the CAB-1 through the command base regulates the voltage output from the Powermaster.  

(My TPC does not have a conventional/command switch.  It is controlled by a command from the CAB-1) 

If he keeps the Powermaster switch on command, he gets the full voltage from his transformer, ~18 volts and the conventionals run down the track at or near full speed, wreck and break as they hit the floor. 

Gotta go, good luck.

[AFGP9]

No I do not have a TPC300. I thought about going that route but haven't yet. They are readily avaiable on eBay. How would I know if the Powermaster is the problem?

The green light on the Powermaster started to blink off and on. The trouble shooting section in the manual suggests there is a short. I keep going back to the fact that when I first set this system up everthing was fine. Since it has sat idol with no wiring or any other changes how does something occur to mak it not work?

With regards to the ZW, it is set to 18 or 20 volts. Checked at the transformer posts this is the accurate output.

Thanks for the reply.

[AFGP9]

When I bought this system, the store owner told me the Command Base would be needed to run my American Flyer locomotives or any manufactures' conventional locomotives. He had a Lionel conventional train set up and running using the componets I have. Also the Lionel manual that I have states that it is required. Has to do with electronic communication.

Thanks for the reply.

[ADCX Rob]

Buckeye Riveter

When he flips the switch on the Powermaster to conventional, the CAB-1 through the command base regulates the voltage output from the Powermaster.

I think you might want to hit the books again on this one, Riveter. The Command Base does NOT communicate with the PM-1 PowerMaster.

[ADCX Rob]

AFGP9

When I bought this system, the store owner told me the Command Base would be needed to run my American Flyer locomotives or any manufactures' conventional locomotives.

He was wrong.

[AFGP9]

I have never had a locomotive run at full speed as described. Yes the ZW is set at 18-20 volts. The Power Master though is set for conventional operation and did function correctly. Since the ZW did the job I saw no reason to buy a power brick.

At this point I am just trying to correct what is keeping things for not running.

By the way, I have both a SC1 and SC2 switch/accessory controllers which are ran off my 30B AF transformer.

Thanks

[ADCX Rob]

Now, back to the original poster, what specifically did you "reprogram" on your CAB-1? Check in the owner's manual and set both the momentum and the stall back to factory defaults.

Check that the PM-1 is programmed to TR-1(see manual here) and the prog/run switch is in the "run" position, with the conv/cmd switch in "conv".

If you don't have TMCC engines, the Command base is not needed for running trains.

[ADCX Rob]

AFGP9

By the way, I have both a SC1 and SC2 switch/accessory controllers which are ran off my 30B AF transformer.

Well, for those, you DO need the Command Base.

 

[ADCX Rob]

AFGP9

I have never had a locomotive run at full speed as described. Yes the ZW is set at 18-20 volts. The Power Master though is set for conventional operation and did function correctly.

Power down the ZW handle, switch the conv/cmd switch to "cmd", and try running the trains with the ZW handle only. This should work, unless your wiring has been compromised or there is a short circuit(in which case the PM-1 will act like an external circuit breaker).

You have to walk through all the steps to isolate the problem - whether it's the PM-1 or some other issue.

[AFGP9]

Except for the Power Brick this picture is similar to what I have. My ZW would be in place of the Brick. I too run all accessories from another transformer. The switch is always set to "conv" because all of my locomotives are conventional.

I think maybe my solution to my problem might be to invest in a 300 Track Power Controller to eliminate the Powermaster as you say you did since you say it runs your conventional locomotives. 

Thanks again for the reply. 

 

[ADCX Rob]

AFGP9

The green light on the Powermaster started to blink off and on. The trouble shooting section in the manual suggests there is a short.

That's what it looks like from here.Check your track(& trains) and connections.

If the red light flashes when you address the PM-1 with the CAB-1, that means it is getting the signal OK.

[ADCX Rob]

AFGP9

I think maybe my solution to my problem might be to invest in a 300 Track Power Controller to eliminate the Powermaster as you say you did since you say it runs your conventional locomotives.

There's nothing special about the TPC300 for conventional operation except for the power rating. In fact, it requires extra equipment that the PM-1 does not need(the Command Base), which is moot since you already have that for your SC-1 & SC-2 controllers.

[Buckeye Riveter]

ADCX Rob

 

 

Buckeye Riveter

When he flips the switch on the Powermaster to conventional, the CAB-1 through the command base regulates the voltage output from the Powermaster.

 

 

I think you might want to hit the books again on this one, Riveter. The Command Base does NOT communicate with the PM-1 PowerMaster.

 

 

I checked an your are correct, the old PM--1 PowerMaster will communicate the voltage change with the CAB-1 directly for conventional operation.  My TPC300 will not.  That being said, those SC-1 & SC-2 do need the Command Base.