Spot solder-plating tubular a success

[spankybird]

Hi Big-Boy,

Yes Galvanize does have Zinc in it and yes it is not EPA friendly. I do not believe it is cadmium coated. There are other plating that use Zinc with chromate coating. It’s really the Zinc that is the bad boy. The big difference is lead can led to lead poisoning.

BTW – 80% of your car steel is Galvanized plated.

tom

[Big_Boy_4005]

Perhaps pretreating with Naval Jelly ( a rust remover ) would have been a better choice. I got the impression that some of the tracks already on the layout have rusted, and Dave wanted to repair them in place. If that is the case, make sure that all of the metal dust is vacuumed up when complete.

I have a bunch of rusty old Gargraves track that I want to salvage. I use sand paper to remove the bulk of the rust from the running surfaces. Sometimes the ties are so dry, the track can't be bent. A little mineral spirits brings the ties right back to life. Finally a light coat of Wahl hair clipper oil or a little WD-40, both electrically conductive, and they are ready to go. Wipe off all of the excess.

This solder business sounds like a lot more trouble than it's worth. I will admit to, on occasion, using solder to fill in a dent in the rail, but not for surface rust.

[wrmcclellan]

Big_Boy_4005,

I think he is using old track pieces for his track building experiments, etc.

Regards

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spankybird

Dave, Isn't tinning your rails with solder ( which is lead) be considered danagers to your health [?] Tube track used to be Galvanized which is zinc plateing, to prevent rust.

tom

Tom, that wasn't galvinized, using zinc, that was cadmium coated. Cadmium is another heavy metal, more like lead, which doesn't rust. It is also almost equally bad for humans.

Dave, why are your rails rusting? Remove the moisture, and all of this becomes unnecessary.

[wrmcclellan]

Daan,

Copper Oxides and most metal oxides are very poor conductors.

Do a Google search on copper oxides and conductivity. As an example: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=397640

Most LGB track is brass (or NS) and it also is a poor conductor when it oxidates. LGB resolves the problem to a degree with the sliding shoes that scrape the rail.

Regards

[daan]

just a note to the reply above.. The problem can hardly be the copper wire, it doens't rust like metal, it corrodates like aluminium and only gets black. As far as I know the black oxide also conducts electricity. (LGB track also oxidates and still trains can run very well)
The center rail will even hide itself automaticly..[:D]
I also thought the silver plating would be expensive... Pity.

[wrmcclellan]

Daan,

Electroplating tin is possible, but requires some harsh chemicals for the plating bath according to a couple of web sites I looked at. Many local plating shops here in the US have been driven out of business due to environmental regulations and costs to comply vs ability to have a profitable business.

There used to be some electrode "wiping" type of electroplating DIY kits for gold, silver, etc. But to redo a lot of track may not be possible economically. These kits also had some nasty chemicals involved.

Plumbers "wipe" soldered joints - heating the joint, flowing the solder, and then wiping very quickly and carefully with a damp rag can spread the solder nicely. How this would work on FJ & G's track I do not know. The problem is a large area has to be heated up at the same time for the wiping to work in spreading the solder.

Since FJ & G is using copper wire for a center rail, it would be possible for him to "tin" the wire prior to using without too much trouble.

Regards

[FJ and G]

Thanks again,

Actually I put the plumbing in in my basement and experimented on the pipes. Solder containing lead seemed to flow much better than lead-free so I compromised with 95% lead free. One problem is that I use the ubiquitous propane torch for plumbing and I understand that the Benzine and Mapp gas torches run hotter. Regardless, I got the plumbing done thankfully.

It is interesting to note that acid-core is OK to use as I always hear dire warnings from modelers.

[daan]

Have anyone tried to plate the track using electricity? The egiptians are even said to have plated the masks of tutanchamun with gold by using electricity and a "bath" in which the mask was laid while being powered with a certain voltage.
The trick with attaching a piece of silverfoil on one pole and something you want to get plated on the other pole, means you even could silverplate a trackpiece. The layer will be only a few micromillimeters thick, but more than enought to keep the rust away...
I don't know however if it works with tin or zinc..

[wrmcclellan]

Acid core was really only a big problem in electronics (reliability) as the unused acid continues to eat at the solder joint and also eat at anything it hits. Clean it good and there is not a big problem. Note all PW Lionel stuff is done with acid flux solder and it still works. The problem appeared when more printed circuit boards came into use (plus environmental concersn with the acid) with their finer geometries and thus a better oppotunity for the acid to do damage and cause the circuit to fail.

The HD lead free plumbers solder I have does not have any flux in it. You use a separate flux (from HD in a lilttle jar) and wipe it into the area to be soldered prior to soldering.

Cut the end of the solder with a good pair of side cutters. If you see little holes in the cut end, then there is a resin or acid core flux extruded into the solder.

So if you do not have any flux core, go get some paste flux from HD. If it has a core, get the paste flux anyway. A little extra does not hurt at all. Make sure you clean the soldered area after it cools. Most newer fluxes are water based. If this does not work well, follow up with a little laquer thinner (have good ventilation, safety precautions, etc.)

So you should be fine to use your solder.

[lionelsoni]

Tin-lead 63-37 solder is called "eutectic". It melts immediately at 361F, without going through a "plastic", or paste-like phase. Common 60-40 electrical solder is plastic from 361 to 374F. Tin solder starts melting at around 430F and is plastic for some range above that. However, it is not that much more difficult to melt with ordinary soldering tools.

[FJ and G]

I picked up some "silver-bearing" solder from HD but refrained from using it because it didn't say whether or not it was acid- or resin-core and I've been told to stay away from the former.

[wrmcclellan]

I found some additional info on lead free solders that could be useful.

This info is from Kester's web site. Kester is a large manufacturer of solders.

Sn96.5Ag3.5
Sn96.5Ag3.0Cu0.5
Sn99.3Cu0

These solders are apparently workable with a normal soldering iron and are almost all tin, which means the lead oxidation issues are avoided. Obviously tin oxidation will occur, but this would be no different than what we deal with on tinplate track today.

I think the lead free solders Home Depot sells for plumbing may fit the bill.

What I could not find was a comparison of melting temperatures between the old and new solders. My experience with the new lead free solder from HD on some copper plumbing was that I needed more torch heating to get the new stuff to flow cleanly. I also needed more flux.

Regards

[wrmcclellan]

FJ & G,

Sounds like a very cool layout!

Silver solder is an option, but it still has a zinc or tin content (bad oxides again, particularly copper and zinc) and requires a much higher temperature to melt (sometimes a torch is required).

Something I found on the web: Ag = silver, Cu = copper, Zn = Zinc, Sn = tin, Cd = cadnium. The number prior is the % content.

Basically all solders contain something undesirable. Jewelers use the hardest with the most silver (up to 95% silver) and this means nice shiney appearance and extremely high temperatures to reflow (e.g. the torch).

IT (extremely hard) 80Ag, 16Cu, 4Zn (somtimes no zn)
Hard 75Ag, 22Cu, 3Zn
Medium 70Ag, 20Cu, 10 Zn
Easy 65 Ag, 20Cu, 15 Zn
Extra Easy 56 Ag, 22 Cu, 17 Zn, 5 Sn
Easy Flo 45 Ag, 15 Cu, 16 Zn, 24 Cd

Here is link to some additional info on silver solders: http://ajh-knives.com/soldering.html

Apologies if this is information overflow.

Good luck!

[FJ and G]

Thanks for the info, wrmcclellan; I may look for silver resin

also, glad you like my amateur experimenting attempts; hope to fini***racklaying this weekend, backdrop & fascia and post pictures next week. The layout will have some very novel ideas including:

industries that attach and detach from the fascia (to swap them out)

tiny blocks to keep freightcars from rolling away (since they don't have air brakes or working handbrakes)

all handlayed track with 14-gau wire center rail

a sunset backdrop with purple mountains (backlit)

forced perspective from O to Z scale (front to back)

novel paintings in the fascia (buried dinosaurs, wrecked cars and graves, along with rock strata painted on)

switching puzzles on point to point track

a mirror that doubles the apparent size of the layout

handbuilt turnout throws

scratchbuilt industries

and numerous other innovations

[wrmcclellan]

FJ & G,

As you noted, solder does not "rust." Yes, the solder oxidation is the same as brass or aluminum oxidation - due to exposure to the air, moisture, oils (i.e. skin), pollution, etc. An oxide is a surface exposure chemical reaction and typically does not decompose the base metal as rust does. The oxides which are on the exposed surface are not conductive (you can verify this with an ohmmeter unless you jab the ohmmeter lead into the solder joint which penetrates the oxide surface).

There are some exceptions. Silver plating or pure silver when it oxidizes is still conductive.

The internal joint such as on a wire soldered to a rail or to another wire is not affected (unless a lot of contaminates are embedded). This is the "gas free" area that I referred to. The solder joint is still conductive with aging (there are exceptions again related to contaminates in the joint). The exception is a "cold" solder joint where the solder crystallizes (instead of reforming as a metal) due to overly rapid cooling or instability in the joint when cooling. A cold solder joint crystaline structure is not electrically conductive and also allows air and moisture to penetrate, compromising the long term (and sometimes short term) integrity of the joint. This is verified by 50+ year old Lionel engines that still perform so well!

BTW FJ & G - I enjoy your many informative posts, particularly those related to your track and switch building endeavors. Your last post on this subject regarding the scratch built switch frog would not be seriously impacted by the liberal use of solder to fill in the voids in the joints. I have done this myself when I constructed HO frogs many years ago.

Regards

[lionelsoni]

As he says, "the gas free area joint is still conductive", that is, the inside of the joint is okay. The problems are with the surface. However, I would suggest that plating with modern almost-all-tin plumbing solder would give you a new surface about as resistant to oxidation as the original, and probably much thicker, therefore with a much longer life before the steel is again exposed.

[FJ and G]

wrmcclellan,

Thanks for the info. I was very curious about the properties of solder. I don't think that it rusts as easily as tubular but you mention oxidation. The ole brass HO rails also oxidized. Is it this type of oxidation? Or, is it more of the aluminum type? And, if so, wouldn't track cleaners clear this up?

Also, reg. electrical wire connections with solder, are there potential problems here, even with a good joint?

[wrmcclellan]

Team,

Relying on my many years in electronics design and manufacturing, solder ages and oxidizes. The oxides are not surface conductive (although the gas free area joint is still conductive). Most resins are somewhat corrosive (this is how they clean the joint being soldered). Electronics manufacturers struggle with the shelf life of tinned components (including bare, tinned, PC boards) wire leads and pads. This is why you see a lot of parts in surplus stores, the parts are no longer reliable to go through a solder pool reflow or IR reflow (surface mount parts). Most large manufacturers attempt to have processes where parts are removed when their shelf life (or time from the parts date code) have exceeded 6 months to one year.

The same issue exists for rolls of solder itself. It gets to a point (particularly with newer solders that no longer have acid core flux) where the solder will no longer flow well as the oxides that break loose and become embedded when the solder melts compromise the integrity of the solder joint.

I would caution that this use of solder could lead to problems if the layout is not used very often or is in a harsh environment (humidity, etc.).

Regards

[jkerklo]

A "ninute" is an old train conductor term. Means "nearly a minute."

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[spankybird]

Thanks Bob, I get it now. It must be the Monday Morning thing.

tom

[lionelsoni]

Tom, the track is, or rather was, tin-plated, without any lead's being involved. The fact that it rusted indicates that the tin had worn away, exposing the steel underneath. What Dave is trying to do is to replace that tin, to cover up the steel again.

[jkerklo]

I don't think "Tinnit" would work with track already laid. The rail has to be CLEEEAN and dipped in the heated solution. Plating takes about 5 ninutes, depending on how thick of a plating you want.

For heating a rail in place, you might try running a current through it. A controlled current should be able to heat the rail just enough to make the soldering easier, but not set the ties on fire.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[spankybird]

Bob, you may be correct with the tin plating on the track. Some of the track I have look like a very light coat of Galvanize on it. If it is at G15 to G30, it would solder without any problems.

If the track already has tin plating, which is part lead, Dave what are you trying to accomplish by adding more lead solder to it.

[FJ and G]

John,

EXcellent idea!

For track that already is laid down, to heat the rails to 150F, I would probably use my propane torch and protect the wood ties (which I installed), by placing aluminum foil between and around the rails.

keep the ideas coming!

[FJ and G]

guys, I suspect the biggest danger would be in inhaling the fumes. I "tinned my tinplate" outside on the patio.

Bob,

I did notice that tubular track is doesn't conduct heat as efficiently as copper and that required several passes with the soldering gun.

One modification that might make the processes smoother would be to bend the soldering tip so that it wraps around the head of the tubular rail. This would presumably make the solder-painting process more efficient and effective.

Also, a true experiment would also try other solders such as silver-bearing solders, as well as different types of fluxes and different levels of heat.

Hopefully, the experiment will give pause to toy train modelers who are considering throwing away a rusty piece of track that may, in fact, be salvageable.

[jkerklo]

Dave, you might try tin plating your rails with a product called "Tinnit." It is intended for plating copper traces on printed circuit boards to make them easier to solder.

You can get it from All Electronics, www.allelectronics.com, CAT# ER-18, $5.50, and other electronics suppliers.

The stuff works at 150 degrees F. I use a rectangular glass baking dish, a "candy"
thermometer, a 1/4 in thick sheet of AL, and a hot plate.

It works well on PC boards, but I haven't tried it for anything else.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[lionelsoni]

I have never seen galvanized track. Since I solder all my joints, I would notice if I came across zinc, which is almost impossible to solder. Tubular track is tin-plated steel.

Solder is only part lead. Ordinary electrical solder is 60 percent tin, 40 percent lead. Plumbing solder used to be 50-50, but is now almost 100 percent tin. They took out the lead from fear that lead compounds would get into the drinking water; but I think metallic solder is not particularly dangerous. However, I use tin to rejuvenate old track.

[spankybird]

Dave, Isn't tinning your rails with solder ( which is lead) be considered danagers to your health [?] Tube track used to be Galvanized which is zinc plateing, to prevent rust.

tom