MPC Lionel F3's and FM's Any Good??

[FEClionel]

I found a pair of Lionel Union Pacific F3's from the 1980's. I was a little kid in the 80's and my first set was the Amtrak Silver Spike set so I don't know much about the 80's Lionel stuff. I know the stuff from the postwar days and today - but not MPC. How do these engines stack up. Do they have a horn? and how are the mechanics compared to the F3's today.

[3railguy]

FEC, the UP F3's are from the UP Overland set. They were built in the postwar tradition with pullmore motors, magne-traction, and mechanical reverse. They are smooth runners and good pullers. They do not have a horn. An add on B unit with horn was offered. It is easy to add a horn to the unpowered A unit. The earlier MPC F-3's from the 70's are junk. They have single motors and cast aluminum drivers with rubber band wheels. The MPC Trainmasters are built in the postwar tradition w/pullmores, magnetraction. mech reverse, etc. Like the F-3's, they are smooth and powerful. The Santa-Fe and SP are the most desirable.

[nitroboy]

Most of the MPC stuff uses alot of plastics. Gears, communtator plates, armatures. The stuff, when run alot, can melt or break the plastic. My MPC GG-1, Virginian rectifier, and Southern Cresent all have these plastics in them. They still run good, and barring any over-abuse, should run good for a long time. Just something to keep in mind.

[ChiefEagles]

FEC, I've got some MPCs with a "1,000" miles on them and still running. If I find some used ones at the right price, I'd buy them.

[Anonymous]

If you see plastic gears REJECT the item. That is all I have to say about it.

[FEClionel]

Well I c\fond a great set of Union Pacific F3's and I was wondering how they compare to postwar in terms of quality. I love the paint scheme and price.

[3railguy]

The nylon gears make for quiet running. If lubricated properly, I've found they last almost forever. The UP units do compare favorably with postwar. However, I wouldn't pay more than $300 for an AA unit.

[ChiefEagles]

3rail is right.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't touch ANY engine with the GARBAGE plastic gears the Idler gear posts are plastic also UNREPAIRABLE JUNK. "quiet" WHO CARES!

[ChiefEagles]

Good, leaves more for us to buy. [;)]

[3railguy]

QUOTE: I wouldn't touch ANY engine with the GARBAGE plastic gears the Idler gear posts are plastic also UNREPAIRABLE JUNK. "quiet" WHO CARES!

Nobody cares if you don't buy it.

[Anonymous]

While the concern about plastic idler gear posts has some merit, I would think concern about synthetic gears themselves is overblown. These gear trains are designed to have hard gears, and soft gears. In the postwar era brass was used as the soft gear. The idea is that you have a known wear item, that is replaceable. Rarely do you have to replace the worm (which is the steel armature shaft) due to wear. Rather, the brass worm wheel is what wore....this led to a very long life for the worm itself (if both parts were steel, they would wear at the same rate, and you'd have to replace both).

The same here, except MPC used a synthetic rather than sintered bronze for some idlers, which resulted in a quieter operating item. Also this lessened the wear rate on the steel press-in idler post. On postwar Alcos and switchers with stamped steel frames these posts are often worn, resulting in expensive and time consuming repairs being needed.

If the synthetic gears are a concern to you, look at the bright side, when they wear out (a long time from now), the postwar bronze gears are a drop in replacement.

HTH,
David Doyle

[Anonymous]

But if the idler gear posts are worn away that renders them unrepairable junk. and the bull gears have their centers stripped Good postwar gears would just mess up the posts. If you have success with this junk, Good but I wouldn't use it to pull itself let alone any cars. Could you see that crap running at a public show? it would last about 15 minutes. Replacing the motor truck assemblies with good postwar ones would gain you the opportunity to operate some neat paint schemes though.

[daan]

It's not only the MPC era that have weak points. In the F3's with horizontal motors (2353)the gear between the motoraxle and the wormaxle is on a "somewhere in between" axle which also wears and gets loose before anything else starts to wear. Mine also have play. It is however easy to fix by replacing the axle by something more rigid, or even with a bearing. The steel /brass combination isn't in the first place to make something wear faster than the other. Nylon or Brass has the natural effect of lubrication without lubricate. So if the engine isn't serviced well, it doesn't eat the gears.
Steel to steel would eat itself within 5 minutes without lubrication...

[Back2Trains]

I spent a great deal of my career repairing audio-visual equipment; everything from movie projectors to computers. Many of them had plastic, usually nylon gears. If the gear train was properly designed for the load, the gears would last. In a few cases where they weren't properly designed, periodic replacement was necessary. But even in some of those cases, properly lubricating them in a timely manner would extend their life indefinitely , thus preventing the need for costly and time consuming replacement. The lubricants used in all cases were only those recommeded by the equipment manufacturer.
I have seen steel shafts running in brass/bronze bushings where the shaft shows extreme wear compared to the bushing. This can occur when dirt particles embed themselves in the softer bushing material and act as an abrasive.
By the way, does anyone realize how much plastic there is in VCRs, CD players, etc.?
They generally are quite trouble free over the long haul and most of their problems aren't caused by the plastic components.
In short, if you like it, buy it, but keep the gears clean and properly lubricated.
Jim

[Anonymous]

Poor dexign is poor design. The gear train of an MPC diesel concentrates the torque where the bull gear is staked onto the worm gear shaft. - BAD. However the plastic bull gear on a low end MPC steamer is staked onto the armature shaft (a low-torque situation) I have NEVER seen one of those gears fail. Proper lubrication is critical for any machine but I still have zero faith in those early MPC diesel drives. As for the steamers, I recommend them to anyone who wants something cheap to pull a train with.. They WILL run.

[daan]

There is a simple method of fixing gears on any axle, also for high torque. Most nylon gears are oversized in comparison to the gears driving it. If you drill a small hole behind the place where the gears match and drill it trough the axle as well, you can put a fine steel wire trough it. The gear will never turn without turning the axle. Also that is used in video and taperecorders. What I do to keep gears fit, works very good with slightly seazed fittings in gears or wheels is tapping the axle with a small hammer 'till its a bit oval in shape. Use fastbond glue and it doesn't flip over. Also filing a few grooves in the axle keeps any gear in place.
Of course all is going to loosen if the power put on is extreme..
But most important is to keep the gears and axles running with as less as possible drag. The gearbox may not consume power when spinning free. Most gearproblems come from bent drive axles, seazed bearings and hairs in the gearshafts.
Something else is keep your trackwork clean. The abrupt change in load when the train runs across a dirty set of tracks, stopping and speeding under full load make any gearbox wear like anything.

[palallin]

My very early 8020 has well over 500 hours on it, and the gears, though a little loose, are just fine, and the thing pulls just fine.

FWIW.

[Anonymous]

I purchased two MPC F3's a while back, New Haven and B&O AB's. Although the majority of my collection is postwar, there was no way I could afford the F3's. So I took a chance with MPC and although they're beauties they can't pull worth anything.
Infact they can barely pull themseves let alone the B-unit. The locomotive quivers as it labors accross my layout and the traction tires slip off the wheels. It's obvious one pullmor is not enough.

It's realy a shame that such nice F3's are so weak. I'm now considering selling them for one F3 with duel motors or installing a second pullmor to add power.