I decided to add a figure 8 (creating reversing loops) to my small 9'x 6' oval 027 layout, but the power to run the engine is too low for all the switches (4 for the fig 8 plus 2 more) . One of our local club members suggested rewiring the switches to run off their own power circuit. ( I have printed out the instructions from a link from this forum.-- and it is a tedious but do-able job.) The engine is an old 2-6-4, (#2018) probably from a starter set pre-war ? or early post-war. The engine runs great, and with too much power will run off the track. The switches don't fully move at the voltage I have to run the engine, even when depending on the automatic non-derailing of the switch, rather than throwing the switch control.
I don't know much about dcc, but it would seem to solve the issue, as the track would have sufficient power for the switches, and the engine would be controlled by the remote. Obviously there is a cost to the dcc solution and a great amount of time involved to re-wire all the switches. But I would also gain in the additional power for a few accessories and whistle, that run slow due to track power.
Yu don't need dcc to operate switches. Just upgrade to a transformer that has some fixed voltages to connect them to.
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Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
It's an O-27 layout. The switches do not have a fixed voltage plug on them. You can modify them to have a fixed voltage input, but you have to make further modifications to prevent burning up the switch motors.
Yes they would have to be modified. You said you did have instructions to do it. You could add more cars to the train that would increase the running voltage or check out the K-Line 027 switches I think they had external power provision built into them.
S.J.
Sometimes a tutorial along with printed instructions helps clarify things.
Bruce
Are you really determined to stay with O27? Rather than modifying all these switches you will have a much better performing layout if you converted to O with 022 switches. Then you can power the switches directly off of a separate transformer set at 18v.
I did not want to spend more money. so the rewiring is the cheapest option. I am fairly electronically adept, so I think I could do the switches, just takes a lot of time... but winter is very rainy in Oregon. But I thought it would be neat if I could economically add dcc. But that might be more expensive than buying new switches. Thanks.
I won't pretend I know much about DCC, but my understanding of the system is that it is generally meant for low current applications. The motor in a 2018 postwar steamer (or any postwar Lionel engine) probably doesn't qualify as low current.
If I am reading this post correctly, the engine runs at too low of a voltage compared to the voltage needed to make the switches work reliably. If this is correct, you could install a few diodes (opposing pairs, if I remember right) in the engine between the motor and the rails to drop the voltage getting to the motor. In doing so, you would have to raise the voltage a few volts to make it run at the same speed it does now. That few extra volts may be all your switches need to work reliably.
Best of all, the diodes will likely cost less than rewiring the switches too. Unfortunately, I cannot recall how they are wired into the circuit. I seem to remember being able to use a bridge rectifier (which is basicly four diodes wired together) to create a larger voltage drop in a more convenient package too. Hopefully someone will chime in with a link or a description of how to do what I am talking about.
Hope this helps,
J White
Not sure if this will work but if you want O guage track I will give it to you for the cost of shipping. Sending you a personal message I think they call it.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
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DCC is not just for smaller scales. It is also used (with higher voltage) for larger scales, including O:
http://www.nmra.org/sites/default/files/standards/sandrp/pdf/s-9.1_electrical_standards_2006.pdf
If you want to try the diode voltage-dropping trick in your locomotives (to get higher track voltage for the same train speed), you can do it by wiring in series with your motor a number of anti-parallel pairs of diodes with current ratings of around 5 amperes. An anti-parallel pair is two diodes in parallel, but with the anode of each diode connected to the cathode of the other diode. Each pair will give you about one-half-volt drop in the RMS voltage to the motor. A compact way to get these diodes is to use bridge-rectifier modules (but not for their intended purpose of rectification). Connect the + and - terminals together and you have in one package two anti-parallel pairs in series, able together to give you about a one-volt drop. The ~ terminals are the ends of the series string; and the +- terminals are the midpoint.
If you rewire the turnouts and leave the anti-derailing connections intact, be sure to include protection for the solenoid coils, because the O27 turnouts lack the contacts that are in the O31 and similar turnouts to disconnect the coils after throwing. Otherwise, if you park a train on the turnout, you will destroy it. My favorite capacitive-discharge circuit is a capacitor of about 5 millifarads (5000 microfarads) fed through a number-53 lamp from a DC source.
The 2018 is postwar, 1956-59. Lionel incorrectly called it a "prairie", which is a 2-6-2; it is an "Adriatic". The pilot truck is inclined to derail to the inside of curves, because its pivot is too close to its axle, causing it to oversteer.
Bob Nelson
Thank you for explaining what I was seeing and unable to convey. Hopefully the original poster lets us know if that was really what he was wanting to accomplish, or if I was reading into what he had typed.
Well, I thought I had a solution to avoid re-wiring the switches -- only two of which are the newer 027 as described in the Lionel video. The others are the older ones....
Again thanks for all the suggestions. I do not want to change my whole layout to "O" as some of my local "O-scalers" have also suggested.... involves too much $$ at this time. And some of the older switches need to be refurbished -- I have the excellent instruction link, thanks. But the least expensive is to try to make things that I have work. I could just leave the oval with two switches to the siding... That works and my grandson uses the siding for logs and other accessories. But I thought making the 2 reversing loops via the "fig 8" would give me something interesting to do while he plays with his favorite accessories.....
I found a link of instructions --but haven't been able to relocate it -- that suggested to merely make sure the transformer "U" was connected to outside rail and "A" to center. Then connect "C" to center wire of the switch controller.. and you have constant voltage for the switch.... but on my 1044 transformer, the "A" is common and "U" is variable, so I assumed that common goes to outside rail and variable goes to center. Either way, the switch doesn't work when connecting the controller mid wire to C . I could rewire the two "51" series switches, but the others are the older 1122 series and rewiring involves a lot. Besides there has been several warnings about protecting the coils with another "gadget". Being able to make the "non-rewire" solution work is important. . So , obviously, I am missing something.
The 1044, like its ancestor, the venerable 1033, and single-train postwar Lionel transformers generally, is meant to use the A or B terminal as common and connected to the outside rails. Using A gives 5-16 volts, B gives 0-11 volts (not enough for many locomotives). Terminal U is the common for transformers like the ZW that control multiple trains.
The non-standard wiring that you describe would work if you wired A to the center rail and C to the controller common wire, which is the ribbed outer wire, not the middle wire. The middle wire is the common for O-gauge turnouts, but not for yours. However, it would not improve the turnout's anti-derailing operation at all. And, if you were ever to try to throw a turnout while a train were on its control rail, you will create a short-circuit across your transformer's secondary winding that is not protected against by the transformer's circuit breaker.
Connecting a voltage from your transformer to the center connection of the controller will never work, and will short the transformer to ground. The center connection of the controller is the ground side of the switch coils. Any attempt to give constant voltage to the switches without rewiring the coils will also give higher voltage to the track, thus speeding up your trains without the ability to control them. The coils get their voltage from the track, and feeding in an external voltage to the coils without breaking the connection to the track will just energize your layout with the external, fixed voltage.
Larry
ok so as usual,, the easy fix is non-existent. I should rewire all switches for constant voltage...... The older ones will just take longer and I will have to review the cautions about the coil protection. or I will have to think about adding the extra resistance to my engine (as posted above) so it needs more power to run at my slower speed. 'tis a conundrum!. But then making older things work, rather than buying new has been a great hobby, especially since I fall into the older thing category........ Thanks.
When the actor Mandy Patinkin got his first Lionel at age nine his dad chose a set powered by the #2018. If you search the interview with Mandy and Tom Snyder you actually get to see that engine racing around Patinkins layout. You're in good company!
Note that the only real distinction between older and newer turnouts with respect to rewiring is how easy it is to get to the coil wires. The newer ones tend to be wired more conveniently than the old ones. But you may find an old turnout with wires accessible from the top or a new turnout that has to be disassembled.
Consider supplementing the crimped connections inside with solder in any turnout that you do have to open up. Drill through and tap the frog for a flat-head screw rather than trying to duplicate the original riveted post.
The capacitive-discharge circuit is quite simple: For each turnout, connect the negative terminal of a 5 millifarad capacitor to track common (which is also the turnout terminal closest to the switch-machine cover). Connect the capacitor's positive terminal to the new coil common in place of the center rail. Connect a number-53 lamp between the capacitor's positive terminal and the DC supply that you will use to power all your turnouts.
If you have two turnouts that will always be thrown at the same time, like a crossover, you can wire their coils together, double the capacitance, and double the lamps (in parallel) or use a higher-current number-57 lamp, then throw them with a single controller.
With as many turnouts as you have, you can make a serviceable DC supply by connecting the anode of a diode (like a 1N4001) to the C terminal of your 1044. The cathode is the DC supply for all the turnouts.
Use capacitors and diodes with at least a 25-volt rating.
Thanks for the emphasis on DC -- I was going to use an old small Lionel transformer for the power. All the older ones need to have bottoms taken off to get at the wire. But I will look into adding the rectifier to the engine..... Thank for the suggestion about the Tom Snider interview... it was fun..... But this engine has no sentimental value as it came from a "craig's list" person in Portland.... but it sure runs nice. I have to take it apart and see how much room for the rectifier..... I really don't want to mess with the coils on the switches... I will take bottoms off and do the maintenance....... Thanks for all the help.... now back to the tinkering.... The YF is wondering if I will ever be done.... ha ha ha......
Now that I have had some time to think about this and (again) re-read the thread, I may be able to increase the necessary voltage by adding heavier cars to the group, as someone suggested early in the discussion. But is there more wear on the engine by adding the heavier load, or is it about the same as putting in the rectifier to increase the necessary voltage?
I have an older whistle tender that is very heavy. I have created a siding for it, so the engine "didn't have to work too hard"...... Thanks for the excellent advice and encouragement.
The rectifier won't place any additional load on the engine. The additional voltage doesn't make it to the motor. Depending on where you wire it into the engine, your headlight may burn brighter (and burn out a bit faster?) and/or your smoke unit may burn a bit hotter (and also burn out a bit faster).
As for the heavier train, I believe that engine was available with a whistle tender, so it should be fine. As long as the train doesn't stall from the weight, I don't think there is too much to worry about as far as the weight it's pulling.
I had second thoughts about using capacitors in the supply. So, in case you or anyone else decides to build the capacitive-discharge circuit, I have rewritten my post above to eliminate them. The problem is that they would supply the C terminal's peak voltage to the lamps, which is more than 22 volts to a 14-volt lamp. But, because you would have a number of turnout circuits connected to the DC supply, the capacitors for the majority of the circuits would store enough charge to recharge quickly any turnout or two that is thrown.
If you use the diode voltage-dropping scheme, keep in mind that you may very well need more than one bridge-rectifier module to make enough of a voltage difference to do what you want. You will get about 1 volt of change from each 4-diode module that you use.
Another thought: If you should modify the older turnouts, either leave the signal lamps connected to the track voltage or supply them separately from the solenoids. The capacitive-discharge circuit needs to be completely unloaded in order to charge up and be ready to throw the turnout.
Again, thanks for the great advice.. The train did come with a whistle tender, but I had not been using it.... and I also have a second whistle tender that is quite heavy..... ebay -- for my second engine..... this second tender is old tin plate, and probably made for a larger engine with more pulling power. I have used it on a siding to have a whistle for the second train , (the engine is a 2-4-2 --- and was not well cared-for, before I got it.). I'll see which tender works better with the 2-6-4 engine, to get the desired voltage. I also have a couple heavy tank cars that I will use instead of , or in addition to, the lighter hopper cars.... all in all, I will try the weight thing first. Then I only have to go through the old switches and refurbish as described in another excellent thread.... Happy Sunday to all.... bbq and visiting with non-train people, so they will just have to admire the prospective layout....... And as usual, some wonder why I would go through all this trouble for a "toy train." but us "train-ers" cannot even explain that to our significant others.......
Wiring switches so the pair on crossover switch at same time??
Thanks for the advice to add more cars/weight to the consist. I did get the switches to move after adding a full hopper of coal to the mix. The engine now needs a gentle (but authentic) slow acceleration or it spins wheels..... and the switches work with the added necessary voltage. Thanks also, for the excellent re-furbishing directions for the old switches... One that had not worked is now working. The others are working, but I will go through the process with them as well.
I recall seeing a post on making the pair of switches on each crossover throw at the same time. I saw a brief comment from a google search, too, but it was not very explicit. What is needed to make this work. I have working double controllers for each pair, so I have been just moving both levers at the same time. But it would be nice to eliminate one controller from my board.
As always, thanks for the excellent forum. Have a good weekend.
All you have to do is to wire the terminals of the two turnouts in parallel and then wire them to a single controller as if they were one turnout. Of the three terminals, you don't need to wire the common terminals (the ones closest to the switch machine, mounted on a little metal baseplate) together, since they are simply connected to the outside rails and therefore already connected through the track. If you wire the other two pairs, middle to middle and outside to outside, the turnouts will throw identically, either both straight or both diverging. But, if you wire them middle to outside, one turnout will throw to straight and the other to diverging. This is useful when the crossover is at a curve in the line, as several of mine are.
Unless you have some track between the turnouts in the crossover, you may find that the insulating track pins leave you with no outside-rail connection between the two tracks. In this case, it can be useful to connect the common terminals together to restore the outside-rail connection.
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