any tricks for a sticky Lionel E-unit

[the nitro man]

I'm just now starting to get into the pre & post war Lionel steam engines. I have a Lionel pre war 1666E steamer that the E-unit sticks on occasion. Just a light tap, & she does good for a while. Then goes back to sticking. Does the E-unit get lubricated at all? If so, where at? Thanks for any suggestions.


Later,
Jerry

[daan]

Besides a lack of lubrication, the metal core of the e-unit could get magnetized because it's constantly in a magnetic field. You can test that with a small screwdriver, just see if it sticks on the core. I wouldn't lubricate it, or if, use graphite instead of a lubrication in a spray-can. may be there is some dirt or hairs on the axle of the collector which keeps it from moving.

[3railguy]

It could be what daan is saying or the pawl teeth are worn or the fingers are bent and hanging up or it needs cleaning and lubricating. The solenoid shaft could be gummed up and sticking. Judging from your description, a good cleaning and lubricating may be all it needs. Shoot it with plastic compatible tuner cleaner. This cleans and lubricates it. Shoot it, cycle it a few times while wet, and shoot it again to blow off any residue created. You can adjust the fingers with a small bent pick or replace them. If the pawl if it is worn, it must be replaced. There is a way to demagnetize it but I can't remember.

[daan]

Demagnetizing is done by heating it 'till glowing red. Don't drop it and don't overdo the heating otherwise you shredded the piece..

[lionelsoni]

It is very unlikely that an e-unit run on AC would ever get magnetized at all. I have rectifiers in my locomotives and no trouble with magnetized e-units. Screwdrivers are very often deliberately magnetized to hold screws; so they are not so good for testing e-unit armatures.

As e-units wear, they develop notches in the crotches of the drum teeth, which tend to catch the pawl, keeping it from releasing. I suspect that, if you look very closely at the drum, you will see these notches. The vibration of AC-powered e-units tends to mitigate this, giving the impression that magnetization has something to do with it. However, a little whittling to straighten out the plastic teeth or replacing the drum every 40 years or so will also cure the crotch-notch problem.

[Anonymous]

I have had good luck with an old bulk reel to reel tape demagitizer.
Over a period of time the dc ofset added to the track to blow the whistel can magnitize the plunder in the eunit. Just put the bulk tape demagnitizer on the eunit and turn the demagnitizer on the entire eunit and presto it is sloved.
dave.

[lionelsoni]

Magnetization is sometimes a problem in whistle relays. Their design sometimes allows the armature and the relay core to come into intimate contact, so that a small degree of residual magnetization can hold them together. The cure for this is to create a small separation between the magnetized parts, most conveniently with a bit of masking tape. On the other hand, e-units have an armature moving inside a plastic tube inside the solenoid and not contacting other parts of the magnetic circuit. This is unlikely to result in anything's sticking to anything because of residual magnetization.

A demagnetizer works by creating a strong alternating magnetic field, which is then gradually reduced by moving the demagnetizer away. Applying power to the locomotive creates a very strong alternating magnetic field within the e-unit, which is routinely gradually reduced by turning the track voltage down. In other words, an e-unit contains its own demagnetizer.

[daan]

That's a good point. With AC the coil magnetic field constantly changes its north and south pole, so magnetazation cannot happen.. I didn't think of that. Magnetazation needs indeed a steady and constant field...
So something else must be the problem...

[ben10ben]

I agree to shoot it with tuner cleaner. I've done this with my sticky e-units, and it's always taken care of them.

[the nitro man]

I can already tell there is a lot more to an e-unit than I thought.
Does anyone have a picture of the different parts of an e-unit with the different parts labeled? I didn't know they had that many parts to them.
Where can I buy the TV tuner at?

Thanks to all of you for your help. Jerry

[ben10ben]

I'll see if I can scan in a diagram of an e-unit when I get home tonight.

Radio Shack should carry TV tuner cleaner. That's where I buy mine from.

[lionelsoni]

See http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd3.htm?itm=1070 for information about e-units. I would not try to lubricate an e-unit. As you can see, Lionel advises cleaning off any oil when servicing them. Do check for the "crotch notches" I described above if you take the e-unit out.

[Back2Trains]

If you don't have it, get the Greenberg Lionel Service Manual. E-Units are not difficult to take apart and service, but the fingers are delicate, so get a feel for the job before you try it. I have found that in the long run I'm better off to tear the unit down so I can clean everything well as well as inspect it. I generally keep one set of replacement parts (drum and finger sets) in stock.
I rebuilt a sticky unit recently and found the problem to be that the axle on one end of the drum was almost worn through which did not allow it to sit properly in the frame.
By the way I use alcohol to clean the plunger and the inside of the coil. It leaves no residue.

Jim

[1688torpedo]

Hello Nitro Man! In regards to your sticky e-unit there is a special spring and pawl that lionel made in 1946 for the 726 & 671 e-units as they were mounted horizontally in the engines and this may help out in your situation.Try Dr.Tinker's toy train parts his phone # is 1-781-862-5798.his prices are reasonable and his service is first rate.And if you happen to need a new drum he has those also. Good luck.........Keith Woodworth

[Anonymous]

I had this problem with a 783 lionel hudson I had. Took out the eunit and it had the plastic lining in the tube also. I found the metal at the top of the eunit was holding the plunger in the up position. It could demagnitize it and it would work good for awhile and then the same thing againa.
I solved the problem by putting in a qsi acru-e with is exactly the same size as the mechanical but works like a charm. I still runs both the hudson and a converted reading t1 that had the same problem. 10 years later still running great. dave.

[the nitro man]

Good news, it fixed itself! Must have just been where it hadn't been used in such a long time. Is it normal for the e-unit to buzz all the time? My 1666e buzz's but it's not to load, but my 2018 is a little more noisy. The handle on the 2018's e-unit is a little loose. Any way to tighten it up a bit?

Thanks,
Jerry

[ben10ben]

Some e-units buzz more than others, but they all make noise.

If you look at the unit, you will see theat the lever has an indention in it that presses into an eyelet on the side of e-unit to allow power to the coil. Taking a pair of pliers and very gently bending it toward that eyelet will make it fit more snugly, and make the e-unit lever less loose.

[lionelsoni]

You might want to check out this old topic: http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=16762&REPLY_ID=175828#175828

[the nitro man]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

It is very unlikely that an e-unit run on AC would ever get magnetized at all. I have rectifiers in my locomotives and no trouble with magnetized e-units. Screwdrivers are very often deliberately magnetized to hold screws; so they are not so good for testing e-unit armatures.

What's a rectifier, & what the reason for using one?

[lionelsoni]

A rectifier converts AC to DC. A simple diode rectifier is like a check valve that allows current to flow in one direction only. Traditional Lionel transformers used a copper-oxide rectifier to put a little DC into the track voltage to operate the whistle relay. A single diode placed in series with an AC source will allow only half the half-cycles of the AC waveform to pass, for example, only the positive ones or only the negative ones, depending on which way it is wired in. This is called half-wave rectification.

Half-wave rectification is pretty bumpy and substantially reduces the effective voltage (by 30 percent). Full-wave rectification lets all the half-cycles through, but reverses the polarity of every other one so that they are all positive (or all negative if you like). One simple way to do this is with a "bridge" rectifier, made up of 4 individual diodes. This is so common that you can easily find a complete bridge rectifier in a single package.

The next step up in quality is to connect a capacitor across the DC output from a bridge rectifier. This can act like a little battery, charging on the peaks and discharging in the valleys of the still bumpy full-wave waveform, to smooth it out. If you use a large enough capacitor, it not only smooths out the bumps but also gives you a 40 percent greater DC voltage than the AC voltage that you started with.

One reason for using rectifiers in locomotives is to reduce the buzzing and vibration. You can also use one in a lighted car, with a large-enough capacitor, to keep the lights from flickering out as you cross switches and dirty track sections. I use them in my locomotives so that I can set the locomotive to respond only to the positive or only to the negative half-cycles from the transformer. It's a kind of low-tech way to control two locomotives (or a locomotive and its whistle) separately on the same track. However, it requires a more complicated gadget, called a synchronous rectifier, in the transformer, to allow me to control the amplitude of those positive and negative half-cycles separately.

[the nitro man]

Where do you learn this stuff??? Sounds like you have forgotten more than I'll ever know about electronics. How much does it reduce the buzzing?
My train repair man said that he could install a spring on a noisy e-unit to reduce the buzzing. Do any of you know what he's talking about? I like to do thing's for myself. You know the funny thing is, I can build a 450 horse power small block Chevy, but a simple little train blow's my mind.



Later,
Jerry

[lionelsoni]

For the entire locomotive, full-wave with 5000 microfarads per traditional open-frame universal motor will give you no buzzing at all. Or you can put the rectifier directly on the e-unit coil; but, if unfiltered full-wave doesn't do the trick, you have to add a filter capacitor. You should then use the minimum capacitance that quiets the buzzing. With any luck, that will not be enough to raise the coil voltage significantly. But, if it does, you will then have to put some resistance in series, either with the coil or with the entire rectifier-coil-filter circuit to get the voltage back down to a level that won't burn up the coil.

I don't know about the spring. There is an e-unit type meant for horizontal installations in some locomotives that don't have room for vertical. It has a spring at the top of the slug that substitutes for gravity. However, I don't see how that would reduce the buzzing. Maybe he has found some other place to put a spring that helps.

[the nitro man]

lionelsoni Posted: 27 Oct 2004, 09:58:36
For the entire locomotive, full-wave with 5000 microfarads per traditional open-frame universal motor will give you no buzzing at all. Or you can put the rectifier directly on the e-unit coil; but, if unfiltered full-wave doesn't do the trick, you have to add a filter capacitor. You should then use the minimum capacitance that quiets the buzzing. With any luck, that will not be enough to raise the coil voltage significantly. But, if it does, you will then have to put some resistance in series, either with the coil or with the entire rectifier-coil-filter circuit to get the voltage back down to a level that won't burn up the coil.



Bob, would you mind telling me how to do what you said above? Part numbers would be very helpful too (if you know them). What's the cost of the parts? I'm working on a Lionel 2018 steamer. If i like it I'll do all of my older engines.


Thanks for your great help,
Jerry

[lionelsoni]

Let's try rectifying just the voltage to the e-unit coil first. That's the simplest modification.

Radio Shack sells a 1.4-ampere bridge rectifier, part no. 276-1152, for $1.49. (http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F011%5F002%5F006%5F000&product%5Fid=276%2D1152)

Take the e-unit coil wires loose from their terminals and connect them to the + and - terminals of the bridge rectifier. Connect the two ~ terminals of the bridge rectifier to the terminals from which you removed the coil wires. If that doesn't stop the buzzing, let us know so we can try some further tricks.

[Anonymous]

I also use lighter fluid to clean parts. Cheaper than tuner cleaner.

Charlie

[the nitro man]

Lionelsoni, I finally bought the rectifier, just now had time to go to the Shack. Work, work, work, that's all I get done. I need a vacation (LOL). I've got a question. Where would be the best place to place the rectifier in the engine? Any need of taping the bare wires on the rectifier?


Later,
Jerry

[lionelsoni]

I would first try to put it right on the e-unit, soldering its ~ leads to the two terminals that you are removing the coil wires from. The rectifier should look like a thick disk about 3/8-inch in diameter, with the four leads sticking out perpendicularly from one side. Try putting the other side next to the pivot for the e-unit switch, with the leads pointing away from the e-unit, then bend the ~ leads around to the terminals, cut them to length and solder them on. That should hold it pretty securely. Then cut the + and - leads of the rectifier to a convenient length and solder the removed wires to them. Unless there is something very close that they could touch, there is no more need to insulate them than there was for Lionel to insulate the original e-unit terminals.

[the nitro man]

I put the rectifier in tonight, & it's not as noisy as it was. When I cycle it into neutral it gets loud again, but as soon as it goes into forward or reverse it gets quite again. Much better than it was. Can you convert the motor into DC? What else ya got in your bag of tricks? I'm very interested in learning all I can.


Thanks,
Jerry

[lionelsoni]

Jerry, let's hold off on converting the motor to DC. It's a pretty big change and requires insulating the e-unit and ungrounding the motor field winding, as well as finding room for a capacitor about the size of a C cell.

Instead, why don't you try, in addition to the e-unit rectifier, putting a capacitor across the e-unit coil. The trick is to use enough capacitance to quiet the buzzing but not enough to raise the e-unit voltage and cause it to overheat. If the capacitor is too big, it will charge up and hold the peak voltage through the half-cycle until the next peak. We want it just to take the corners off the rectified AC waveform.

I just hooked up an e-unit with an 18-ohm coil resistance and tried several capacitors on it. The slight buzz went away with 220 microfarads, and the voltage went up only a couple of volts. I would suggest trying 100, 220, 470, and maybe 1000 microfarads, in that order. If you have a voltmeter, watch the DC voltage on the coil as you connect each capacitor to be sure that it doesn't go up more than a little.

E-unit resistances seem to be all over the map, so it is hard to know what the right value will be except by experimenting. Be sure that your capacitor has a high-enough voltage rating. Sixteen volts is probably enough, 25 volts is plenty. Also be sure to connect the + and - leads of the capacitor to the same leads on the rectifier. It doesn't matter where you put the capacitor. If it is small enough, you might hang it by its leads from the rectifier.

[toolmandan]

Thanks Bob!!!!

This really does the trick!  Been trying for months to find a solution for the buzzing.  Great Tip!