TCA

[railfan23]

Big_Boy After reading your other post I must say that sorry you feel that way toward the TCA and York shows, however since joining in 1998 and attending all in that time period I would disagree with your comment concerning the rules and ebay. Having seem you in TMs video and until you removed your TCA number, and knowing what year you joined, I should point out that I am quite a bite younger than you and have no problem running all of my post war trains including my 2332 with its set of near mint in the box matching set of plain window Madison cars. I must say that the TCAs rules while you may feel are outdated are no different than in other hobbies such as no pictures (crafts people are the worst, but they are defending their work) . While I would love to take a few pics to show to those I know to see what an event that this is, I also understand why it is not allowed. On the issue of no cell phones, I view it as NO different than sniping on ebay and I am sure you, like myself have been knocked off with 1 or 2 seconds left and not been to happy about it. Maybe some rules may need to be updated. One thing that I would do is open Saturdays to the general public and members while keeping Friday members and their guest only. Whether you agree or disagree with these rules I am sure that with a bit of research we can find soon outdated and usless laws still in use by todays U.S. goverment.

I got into the hobby for its enjoyment, not about an investment. While I have a few collectible items, they, like my common post war or modern era items, all get track time. I am now constructing a post war style layout with post war style trains and accesories. If a piece is out of my budget I have no problem in getting a referbished or reissued item. Seeing that you are a member of the NMRA I am sure that you must know how fanatic some members are concerning collecting. In some NMRA circles I have seen members who have items that "still have factory air inside". How is that different than how you describe TCA members? Before you ask, yes, I run another scale and I am in another national organization and a club.

Ebay...hummmm, that is a whole different animal. While it has lowered prices(seeing this trend since I joined in 2001) it has also brought to light items including prototypes and varriations while showing that what my have been "rare" are now pretty common. If someone was in it for the money, well, sorry about their bad luck. I do not see though how you can say that ebay and the manufacturers are taking York over. The Orange Hall containing the manufacturers and most new items ( modern era vendors), I believe is 75,000 sq ft. The other 5 FULL halls are just about all pre war, post war and vintage related toys. I am sorry that you feel the way you do about the TCA and York. This is not a dig on you, just thoughts from someone on the other side of the tracks.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RI Jim

I agree that TCA needs to change with the times. It's a dying organization that needs to do all it can to make the organization and its meets more accessible and freindly to the general public so that it may have a chance to grow. As TCA members, we have the power to change the rules. Let us VOTE and may the majority rule.

I wish it was as simple as just voting. I think the bigger problem is getting it on the ballot. Another problem is the majority may think things are fine and dandy the way they are, and we're a bunch of whiners.

The TCA is not in the business of reaching out. It was started in Pennsylvania, and it has stayed in Pennsylvania. The fact that anyone outside the state of Pennsylvania has ever heard of it, let alone joined it, is something of a miracle. I've always been a bit of a weirdo myself.

Just for fun, I grabbed my oldest TCA directory and flipped to Pennsylvania and did a crude head count. I came up with about 3300 members in 1981, which translated to about 25% of the total. Then I grabbed the current directory, and found that the ranks had swelled to about 9500 or almost 33% of the total membership now lives in Pennsylvania. Does anyone else see a problem here?

Now Pennsylvania is not the most populous of the 50 states. It ranks tied for fifth with Illinois, behind California, Texas, New York, and Florida. Ohio is a close sixth. Please don't get me wrong, Pennsylvania is a very nice place, I've visited there a few times, including a couple of visits specificly to Strasburg, home of the TCA museum and a number of other train related attractions. Are trains that much more popular in Pennsylvania than anywhere else in the country, or does the York meet just make it seem that way?

Pennsylvania is nearly saturated with train collectors. How many more new members can they find? The problem is if you can't travel to York, you can't have equal access. The TCA is far too centralized. In 1994 the national convention was held at York, almost 3400 members regisrered. The year before when the convention was held in St Paul, 727 members attended. There is a fairly clear pattern for convention attendance. Any convention held more than 400 miles away from York can expect small numbers.

In the end, I'm not sure what could be done to change the TCA. It's kind of like asking the leopard to change his spots.

[brianel027]

Hi John, I agree with you totally. I don't imitate originals with my repaints and that is absolutely intentional. My primary inspiration for repainting is simply to have the roadnames I want in the size I want. I have K-Line MP-15's, S-2's and Alco FA's in roads like Norfolk Southern, CSX (early modified blue/grey/yellow, MOW orange, Chessie merger, and current modern schemes), Conrail (early large logo, later CR quality schemes). Not to mention more schemes on roads that have been done: Lehigh Valley (Alco in Snowbird scheme, S-2's in yellow jacket and late Cornell red schemes, NW2 in the cigarband yellow scheme, several variations on the late New Haven schemes, MP-15's, Alco's and S2's all in Penn Central including a fantasy economy PC green/black scheme on an Alco, Central New Jersey S2's in early green and late coast guard schemes, Industrial Switchers in CR, NS, CNJ and Lehigh Valley, custom built RS-3's and custom designed and built U-Boats. The Alco FA's look extra nice by having the side vents done in silver paint. Plus I paint handrails and steps, add marker lights and actual headlights, strobe lights. Some have additional handrails and engineer figures. One of my Penn Central Alco's has the Pennsy-style antena along the roof. I have a high hood S-2 done in Norfolk Southern with dual headlights. A few locos have ditch lights added. All have custom modified traction. Some have my own designed traction enhancement. Most K-Line S-2's have windows cut into the back door and a couple have side front windows cut into the cab. Even with the chinsey K-Line plastic decorative horn, I drill into the front with a cone-shaped cutter to give the horn piece a much better look. Some locos have Lionel chrome painted decorative bells and horns in place of the K-Line ones. All S-2's have custom made front and rear ends to cover the gap space. Some are painted with warning stripes.

I won't even mention steam engines, cabooses, or various rolling stock. Needless to say the reasons are the same. I have all sorts of Conrail cars in smaller sizes in Conrail paint schemes that have only now begun to be touched by the 3-rail train makers.

So I am not into faking people out as some individuals might be inclined to do. I was once an active exhibiting artist with many many solo exhibitions and shows under my belt. I even ran an art gallery. I now paint trains with the same skill, passion and intensity that I once did oils on canvas. Simple as that.

And I love have so much stuff that is unique to my layout, and looks comfortable on my layout. If I had waited for Lionel or K-Line to make the trains I want in the roads I want, 14 years later I would still be waiting. K-Line has yet to do most of the roads and schemes I have done, simple as that. And Lionel hasn't done many of them in over 25 years.

I didn't feel like waiting for someone to make a smaller Norfolk Southern engine and I'm glad I have the skills to make mine look as good as from the factory itself.... actually better!! I may run non-scale stuff, but it has always bugged me how Williams cannot get the Norfolk Southern logo in correct proportions on their GP-9 and NW2.

[Anonymous]

Let it die in peace.

[RI Jim]

I agree that TCA needs to change with the times. It's a dying organization that needs to do all it can to make the organization and its meets more accessible and freindly to the general public so that it may have a chance to grow. As TCA members, we have the power to change the rules. Let us VOTE and may the majority rule.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: But if the TCA is going to grow, all different modelers need to be welcomed, be it guys like me, or on the other end, guys like Highrailjon. Otherwise, why would I want to join a group where I am going to be told my trains are worthless junk. Junk? Not to me!!! I would trade not one of my repaints for any postwar Lionel F-3... that's what my trains worth to me, price guide or not!!!

Although TCA stands for collectors (Train Collectors Association) modelers are welcome to the TCA too. Nobody really has anything against modelers. It's the modelers who have problems with TCA rules. Your repaints are of value but they aren't fully origional anymore. Nobody wants to pay full collector value for a repainted piece. The TCA wants to be sure you inform would be buyers your repaints are in fact repaints, not origional and I'm sure you do this. But, believe me there are a number of people who take commom trainmasters and paint them Jersey Central and try to pass them off as origionals for $2,000. The rules are designed to protect people from being frauded this way.

The bottom line is there is a number of different people with a number of different philosophys under one big roof. As far as rules are concerned, you can't please all the people all of the time.

[brianel027]

Well one thing that is very very obvious from reading the train forums is that 3-rail train hobby is more diverse than ever before: more types of trains, operating control systems, scale proportions, track types, etc. The way we train guys buy trains, run trains, build layouts and the types of trains we purchase are also more diverse - and sometimes polarized too.

Therefore it would stand to reason that if the TCA is to grow and remain vital, it is going to have to accomodate new modelers and their wishes.

It is just about so called "collectibles" anymore. Sure, money talks. And during the 1980's many types of collectible items were all commanding higher prices. In part due to the fact folks were making more money and were willing to spend more money for the items they desired to purchase. In the case of Lionel (and related brands) Trains, the money got ahead of the trains themselves... all of a sudden everything was worth more money, even the things that really weren't worth that much. But folks were willing to spend $40, $50 or $60 for an MPC-era box car. And the price guides had a hard time keeping up with the frenzied increases in prices. The price "guides" became indispensible "price bibles" and even the novice seemed to know that if the word Lionel was on the box, it was worth a fortune. Times have changed. The economy is not nearly as good. Many folks cannot afford to spend what they once did. Many others already have enough trains. Nevermind older trains and price guides... even the new trains are taking a beating. The catalog gives you a list price of $65 for a train car. Five, six months later that same train car is being sold brand new for $30. So even the list prices have become somewhat meaningless, especially if that particular item isn't selling well.

Figuring out what trains are worth today is becomming more a matter of what someone will pay rather than what a price guide says. I remember a time a few years ago when the customer had to wheel and deal. Today, I've noticed more dealers willing to deal before you even utter your first words. Obviously there are not enough train buyers and we've all known this for years.

Sure, some trains will always be worth money, as there are still collectors who buy for sheer financial appreciation. As there are collectors who buy and run their trains, regardless of their expense and/or worth. As there are collectors who just buy whatever they can afford, meaning their trains may not be the top of line items as far as the desirability factor is concerned. As there are guys who just buy the trains they like to run and can afford to buy, thus in the process, building a collection of trains.

As I mentioned in another related topic, I have little use for the so-called collectors who never run their trains and keep them in their boxes. Just as those guys have little use for me. I'm sure that at this point, nearly 75% of my trains are now custom repaints, or have modified original paint schemes. I know nearly 95% of my locos are repaints and rebuilds. BUT I do this for fun. And I do it so I can have the roads I want and the types of locos I want in a smaller semi-scale size that will look comfortable on 027 track. That's just me.

But if the TCA is going to grow, all different modelers need to be welcomed, be it guys like me, or on the other end, guys like Highrailjon. Otherwise, why would I want to join a group where I am going to be told my trains are worthless junk. Junk? Not to me!!! I would trade not one of my repaints for any postwar Lionel F-3... that's what my trains worth to me, price guide or not!!!

And all this is provided there's even enough interest to make the TCA grow. As mentioned above, there's the expense of going to YORK, especially if you don't live close, are not financially well off or have a family with kids in tow. Not to mention the ease of the internet yard sale: ebay, which has made it easier than ever for train buyers to find exactly what they are looking for without having to venture off to YORK.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: I have been a member of the TCA for over 22 years. That is longer than anyone else involved in this conversation, that I'm aware of. Please don't try to tell me I don't understand what it is all about. I have been to 4 national conventions, and served on the committee for one.

Big Boy, I was a member for 18 years. OK so you understand what it's about. What you don't seem to understand is the people who feel differently about collecting than you have as much right as you do. You don't seem to respect how others feel about collecting. The majority vote is what makes the rules.

No pictures, no cell phones, and sign in procedures have a lot of people worked up on this and the OGR forum. For the life of me, I can't understand why? Personally, the last thing I want is to hear my $%^& cell phone ring when I'm indulging in trains. If I were to attend York, the first thing on my mind is meeting train guys and leaving with trains. The last thing on my mind is leaving with pictures. Sure they would be nice but so what? We can just go to Hooters or something for a group shot of old train buddies if anything. Getting signed in is no big deal. It takes much less effort than the posts we are making here.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Thanks for your support Dave. I think Allan and I checked out each other's credentials on our last arguement.

In the end, I'm just glad I never poured a lot of money into the high buck stuff. I've always been a quantity not quality kind of guy. I buy what I like, mostly new, and current production. I always look for bargains, but then who doesn't?

I've taken my, now, 12 year old son, to the Century College show a number of times. We like to play a game when we go. The game is simple and fun. How many cars can we get for $100? Usually we get 3 or 4. The game is meant to teach him the value of a dollar, and how to shop and prioritize, while maintaining a budget.

I used to be a Lionel purist, but when the scale craze hit, all bets were off. Now I buy any of the manufacturers products, as long as they fit with the theme of my railroad. The theme is simple, modern (diesels only), TMCC, and scale. The way the real railroads operate these days, road names don't matter anymore.

When empty boxes sell for hundreds of dollars, in my mind somebody has lost touch with reality, and I don't think it's me, cause I sure wouldn't.

People thought I was crazy when I placed the winning bid of $5, in an auction on an empty box for a 6512 cherry picker, 20 years ago at a TCA meet. The person I was bidding against was, none other than, the late Don Herman, who went on to become president of the TCA some years later. I had the car in my collection, so when I saw the box come up, I bid $1. Don said $2, I went for $3, Don came back $4. I took $5, and everyone laughed. Don gave up, admitting later, that he didn't even own the car.

I say these cold and har***hings about the TCA and York, because that is what I see happening. I am not an insider, nor am I a total outsider. I am an observer, and I get the impression that the true insiders have lost their objectivity, and are in denial.

Those who love it and attend regularly, are welcome to enjoy their train related social gathering. It sounds like more of a twice a year reunion, than a train meet to me. The old gang gets together, and takes inventory, to see who didn't make it since their last visit, and discuss old times.

Meanwhile, the manufacturers and dealers continue to distract and divert dollars away from those bloated collector prices the members have the trains on their tables marked. In the end, York will become a victim of it's own success, unless a serious effort is made to turn things around. It may already be too late.

This is the 21st century. I didn't live in the 50's, so reliving them has no meaning to me. The TCA has reached a crossroad, and has no map to find it's way. In my opinion, the path it has chosen is just a dead end.

Would the last one out, please turn off the lights?

[cbojanower]

About 3 years ago I took the plunge and joined TCA,. This was after the idea of getting 2 sponsors turned me off to the organization the year before. However I guess I wanted to try it again (Perhaps dreams of going to York or something).

The first thing I found out was that 2 member thing is a joke, not because I couldn't find 2 members, but I found too many who never knew me but wanted to sign me for me. This included the Current TCA president who didn't know me from anyone else on the Internet. Sure I appreciated his offer, but where is the organizational integrity in that?

Next I started receiving the publications, the train quarterly is an OK magazine, but nothing compared to CTT or OGR. As for the monthly magazine, it heads right for the trash can as soon as I glance at the meeting minutes, the rest of it is pointless, I really don’t need to be reminded every issue that a R is required to be stamped on reproductions. And as for the classifieds, they are nothing in this day and age. Perhaps 20 years ago they were a great source of train, but eBay and the internet has done away with their value.

I’m not saying that I regret being a member of the TCA, but its stuck way far in the past and is becoming less and less important in today’s train world and needs to change to survive. I think in some ways my K-Line club membership is more valuable than my TCA membership.

[highrailjon]

As an O gauger following this post, I would like to weigh in as well. I'm gonna have to side with Big_Boy on this one. I 'm not at all concerned about the collectors value of a Wabash F-3, let alone ever purchasing one. Pretty much, if it isn't scale and equipped with TMCC, I won't even look at it. Just wondering how many more are out there like me. Times are a changing.[:)]

[Anonymous]

Elliot: I live out in southwest minnesota, 15 miles south of Marshall where schwans ice cream is made. It is a 3 hour drive for me to get to the cities and the last few years all the HO and N have just dominated the twin cities shows, and prices are not low at all.
I agree with you, ebay is the place for me.
Sioux Falls had a show last year but not much there and what was was list price or more.
Also I do know the value of a collectable lionel or I still would not have a mint 1937 700e on its display plate in my train room. Anything less that that is now toy trains to me vs scale.
If all of you knew what elliot built in the mall of america you would respect him much more for what he knows, can do in the hobby of model railroading.
dave.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I have been a member of the TCA for over 22 years. That is longer than anyone else involved in this conversation, that I'm aware of. Please don't try to tell me I don't understand what it is all about. I have been to 4 national conventions, and served on the committee for one.

This is a dying organization, and the proof of that is published on page 5 of the Quarterly, in the form of a growth chart spanning all 50 years of the club's existance.

20 years ago, I said train collecting was a game of musical chairs, when the music stops, you better know where your trains are going, because chances are there will be nobody who wants to buy them from your estate. The music is still playing, but for how long?

The Kids Club should have been formed 20 years ago.

The writing has been on the wall for a while now. People schlep their trains to shows, lay them out on the table priced according to the latest guide, then turn around and pack them back up, unsold. How many guide books are going to sell with lower prices in them? This is where collecting is headed.

Without new members this whole pyramid is going to collapse. Losing someone like me is no big deal, as I was never much of a buyer in terms of gross dollars anyway. When I quit, it will be more of a symbolic gesture, and the loss of a number. The question is what happens when members die off at a faster rate than replacements can be found? Who buys the trains???

By the way Allan, the fact that you have co-authored price guides in the past, speaks volumes.

If you'll excuse me now, I have a will to review and sign.

[3railguy]

Allen, not sure who you're pointing your comment at. I'm not even a member of the TCA anymore. Too big and too commercialized. I'm just stating the TCA's reasoning. You need to put yourself in the shoes of a serious collector before making statements like this.

I have a moderate size postwar collection and the dollar value is meaningless to me. However, if I decided to sell it off at a meet, I certainly wouldn't want any Tom, ***, or Harry off the street handling it marring the finish, bending trim, or blasting his mouth off at $900 Wabash F-3's,. etc. And no, I won't sell a Wabash cheap because $900 is outrageous to some. I've been in situations like this and they are no picnic.

The TCA rules were voted by members. If a guy wants the rules changed, write a letter to the prez. It''ll go through a review chain and a vote will come up on an annual ballot. It's that simple. If a guy don't like TCA rules, there are Greenburg and GATS shows where anything goes. They are open to the general public too.

[Anonymous]

"I understand that John, but to me the trains have lost all of their collectable value. I no longer have any use for a club that requires integrity in its members, as I'm not into trains for the money."
---------------------------------------------------

Some folks appear to have absolutely no clue regarding what collecting toy trains (or anything else) is all about. To equate everything with dollars/value is so far off the mark that it would almost be laughable if it wasn't so darn sad.

[3railguy]

Big Boy, the TCA's roots are about vintage trains, many of which are still quite valuable. You may be an operator who doesn't care about collector value but there are many people who do. The rules are voted on by this majority. There is a lot of fraud in this market such as reproduction rare shells, restorations offered as origionals, etc. The TCA board does everything they can to protect buyers.

[Anonymous]

The York show is run by only one branch of the TCA. That branch, the "Eastern Division" is in PA and has the most members. That's why they don't move around the country. They have the show near where they live and where there is an enormous mult-building facility that can hold it.

The TCA itself does move around the country, that's the convention referred to in an above post.

It is Eastern Division which sets the rules for York. You guys need to lighten up on TCA and instead address your complaints to the people who run run the show.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

The sign in and probationary procedure was created to maintain integrity of the club members.

I understand that John, but to me the trains have lost all of their collectable value. I no longer have any use for a club that requires integrity in its members, as I'm not into trains for the money.

[3railguy]

The sign in and probationary procedure was created to maintain integrity of the club members.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by roxin2002

If I were to figure out the cost to drive out there and back, lodging, food and the entry fee just to join, I could have a nice addition to my layout.
I went to the TCA national when it was in the twin cities and there was allot of stuff there but very high prices.
Now with ebay, I guess I don't feel I need to attendent york. Even our own train show in Woodbury mn is now mainley HO and it used to be almost all pre and post war. Not even any parts people there for lionel anyway.
dave.

I didn't know that you lived in the Twin Cities Dave. That's exactly how I feel too. By the time I pay to travel and stay, there's nothing left to buy trains with. Furthermore with the trains that I like to buy these days, I can find more than I can afford on eBay.

I haven't been to the Woodbury show in years. The Century College show is much better, and the 3 rail sellers know that. Some still do both shows, and there is still a lot of HO and N at Century. I think there's at least one parts dealer that goes to that show.

[Anonymous]

If I were to figure out the cost to drive out there and back, lodging, food and the entry fee just to join, I could have a nice addition to my layout.
I went to the TCA national when it was in the twin cities and there was allot of stuff there but very high prices.
Now with ebay, I guess I don't feel I need to attendent york. Even our own train show in Woodbury mn is now mainley HO and it used to be almost all pre and post war. Not even any parts people there for lionel anyway.
dave.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Rather than chase everyone over to the other topic to see my comments, I have brought a copy over here.

Joe, I agree, it may indeed be time to dispense with all of the nonsense and tight rules, and open up.

---

I think we should make a distinction between collecting and accumulating. A collector, as in the C in TCA, is someone who seeks out specific pieces, and buys them to place on a shelf. Always mindfull of their value and condition, a true collector's trains are not toys, as they are never played with. They are artifacts of a time long passed, a memory of what once was.

At one time back in the early 80's Lionel tried to create new collectable trains. I was a collector then. When the market became flooded, I gave up, and turned into an accumulator.

I think the days of the true collector are nearly gone. There are a few purist holdouts, but the manufacturers have pretty much returned to making toys and scale models. Beautiful, fun and expensive to say the least, but not collectable.

The TCA has a real dilema. If they wanted to remain true to their founding principles, they would throw all the manufacturers and dealers out of York, or at least segregate them in such a way that the public had access as well. Simply reserve a few halls for members only, and let everyone into the rest. Anything less is a disservice to the hobby.

The flip side for the TCA is to grow and change with their membership. This may be what they are trying to do at York. The problem is that some of the "old boy" rules are still in place, namely the entire membership application process.

Is the TCA only for true collectors, or is it for everyone?

---

While I don't always see eye to eye with Mike, on this subject I agree. Not only is it in his company's best interest, it is in everyone in this hobby's best interest. The TCA is stuck in a rut, and firmly rooted in Pennsylvania. No other scale of model trains behaves this way.

In a way, York has allowed this to happen, and further perpetuate this problem. It upstages the TCA's own national conventions. Conventions held west of Chicago are much more lightly attended than those held closer to Pennsylvania. This becomes a chicken and egg arguement. Are there more TCA members in Pennsylvania because of York, or is the meet held in York because there are more TCA members near there. Either way, the farther away you live, the more left out you are. In my opinion this is very unhealthy, and has been going on way too long.

Many years ago, I nicknamed York, "toy train Mecca", the place where the faithful make their "pilgrimages".

Some people reading this may think I have a giant chip on my shoulder. Sour grapes that I don't live closer to "the action". Perhaps Mohamud should go to the mountain rather than expect the mountain come to him. I don't see why there should be a mountain. Level the playing field, equal access to all.

[Anonymous]

Most of the TCA bigshots are living back in the 50's and have their heads in the sand. The rules need to be changed if they expect younger people to join. It's a fact that most young people today don't want to be hassled with a lot of rules and regulations so it's a big turnoff for them. I like Mike Wolf's idea about York, just open the halls up and let everyone in.

pax[C):-)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

I don't think anyone ever said it was impossible to get into York, especially if you come prepared. The thing is that the average person can't just walk up, pay and get in. You have to know somebody in the club first, as was pointed out by both Ben and Greg. Are these rules outdated? Do they hinder our hobby? Would more people become interested if they had easy access to such extravaganzas?

[GregM]

It is possible to join the TCA at York. I did just that last April. I printed an application from the TCA website and had two OGR forum members that I had met sign the application for me. I took the signed application with me to York. Waited in a special new members line until it was my turn to pay. Then I paid the meet (yes, York is a meet) entrance fee and my wife and I were given badges. We spent the next several hours perusing the halls.

[ben10ben]

You can go to York as a guest once. You have to be the guest of a TCA member, though, and can't just walk in.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, check out my response over on this topic. I think I have picked up on some of your concerns.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22917

[Anonymous]

When I first joined TCA, I went to a meet with 2 TCA members. I liked what I saw and then joined. The two members and friends signed for me.
Why can;t you do that at York? As I understand it, York is not considered a meet so you can;t go as a guest and then join if you want.
I t seems that TCA exists only for York. What would happen if York ceased to be, end of TCA.?
My point is, why don;t they try and get more members, or do they have enough?
I would think dealers would rather have the meet exposed to everyone so they could possibly sell more.
Dave.